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Re: [RC] [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene - Soli Sorokin

On 1/9/06, Kris <aggiekris@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sounds like she is a rabicano. She may have the sabino >gene, but usually
there is more white on the face with >that.

There seems to be some sort of relationship between rabicano and sabino,
though not entirely sure what. a minimal sabino can often have rabicano-type
roaning, but will not breed as a rabicano, only a sabino (i.e. rabicano in
offspring is always accompanied by sabino)

This is true (almost all TWH sabino's show rabicano type white hairs
but are also accompanied by more clear sabino patterns), but with a
horse with only two white socks and minimal face white, and a mostly
arabian heritage, I'd still guess rabicano over sabino, although as I
originally said, it IS possible.

As to the white on the face, it's
possible NOT to have a lot of white, though fairly uncommon. of course, i
would have to see a picture to say for sure, but sabino is a master of
disguise - that's why crop-out paints are still so common.

I'm guessing you are referring only to sabino patterns - Tobiano and
overo do not skip a generation, and one parent must display at least
minimal characteristics (which are pretty easy to identify).  And only
very few strains of sabino (or modifiers, as you suggest) can produce
anything beyond lots of chrome. It would not be a good bet that the
original poster's mare can produce a pinto coloration of any kind,
based on her description, and that is what I was attempting to convey.
It may be possible, IF the mare has the sabino gene, AND if that
sabino gene is the type that allows for anything more than lots of
chrome. And if both of those are true, then you still only have a
small chance of actually producing a foal with such a pattern.

There is speculation that the gene that causes overo was originally a
mutation and that it continues to crop up as a mutation on a
semi-regular basis in the QH breed, which is why you will occasionally
get an overo out of solid QH parents. It will then breed true as a
dominant trait thereafter. You can see the essay from UCDavis that
mentions this here:

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/research/equine/lvmillon/overo.htm

 It's the same gene - these maximal sabinos can still produce the minimal
sabinos seen in Arabs, as you said. The difference is caused by some sort of
modifier (one of these days when i get funding, i plan on doing a project
with sabino), similar to the leopard complex in Appaloosas. One gene is
responsible for all 6 patterns, but as yet, no one really knows the
inheritance of one pattern versus another. The sabino (or leopard) gene is
resposible for opening a gate which allows whatever variant of color for
which modifiers are present.

So it would be a modifier on top of a modifier? Interesting theory - I
hadn't heard it before and I would be interested in seeing evidence.


I'm familiar with that stallion - Pusher's coat of color. He is a son of The
Pusher CG, who is largely responsible for sabino in the TWH. most TWHs are
NOT this loud, they look more like The Pusher.

There are quite a few, but there is a large prejudice against spotted
coat patterns in the show ring so they aren't being bred for except by
pleasure breeders. Probably not so many outside of the South though.

The filly actually had some black hairs in her coat
and to simply look at her one would think she might >have been a very
sunburned black, but she was most >definitely chestnut by genetic testing.

Smuttiness is distinct from rabicano - don't think i've ever seen a
correlation.

I've heard of a correlation but not confirmed. I was merely putting it
out there as a possibility  since the original poster indicated some
confusion on her horses' basecoat color.

~S


----- Original Message -----
From: "Soli Sorokin" <soliae@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "Ridecamp" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene


Sounds like she is a rabicano. She may have the sabino gene, but
usually there is more white on the face with that. She does not carry
the tobiano gene based on your description. Rabicano causes white
hairs interspersed on the coat (and the coat is often, but not always,
more "smutty" than the usual for whatever color the horse is). It also
usually causes white on the tailhead and interspersed within the tail
- anywhere from a few hairs to quite a few.

I would not expect her to produce any significant pinto coloration in
foals, but she may pass on the rabicano, or sabino if she does indeed
carry it.

Interestingly enough, the sabino that exists in TWH's and the one that
exists in other horses, particularly arabians, seems significantly
different in the possiblities for coat patterns. CMK arabians, which
seem to have the greatest incidence of the Arab-type sabino, often
have tall white socks and big blaze faces, often also having belly
spots. But you never see a maximum-expressed sabino as you do with TWH
lines that carry sabino. (This will be a foal born white, with some
very minimal body spots of color). You also don't see the
pseudo-tovero (tobiano-overo combination) colorations that sabino
produces in TWH's but does not produce in Arabians. My guess is that
these are two different genes that produce similar results and have
therefore been named the same thing. I do not think there is a test
for either sabino pattern.

Here is a picture of a colorful sabino TWH stallion. He does not carry
an overo or tobiano gene, and has sired everything from solid foals to
foals with "Arab type" sabino to foals colored such as himself, out of
solid mares.

http://www.dawsonwalkers.com/

I did own a rabicano arab filly quite a few years ago. She was a liver
chestnut, very dark, with white hairs on the flank and shoulder area
and a white tailhead with a few white hairs through the tail. Her sire
was black-bay and her dam was chestnut-gone-grey. Her sire was not
rabicano so I presume it came from the mare, but as she was grey it
was not visible. The filly actually had some black hairs in her coat
and to simply look at her one would think she might have been a very
sunburned black, but she was most definitely chestnut by genetic
testing.

~S

On 1/8/06, L gin <ladurgin@xxxxxxx> wrote:
  Interesting you mention this . My mare Honey  is 32/34 Arabian, double
registered  half-arab, and Pinto  BS.
   She is a greatgrandaughter of  Khemosabi- rest is Davenport,Crabbet-
some
Spanish.
She was registered as a Chestnut as a foal with IAHA -- later I changed it
to bay---- but she probably is a chestnut with  sabiano gene.
    Body color is  goldenred color. She has two dime size or smaller white
spots on her shoulder (her only pinto type spots- present form birth)--
Two
white socks in front. She has a sprinkling of  white hairs on her body
mainly on her sides and back. Her mane and tail  are black in the center
with glaxen hairs on the outside-- "Skunking" I believe it's called. Whe
has
a white crescent marking on her forehead and a snipe on her nose. She also
is "mealy mouthed".....
    I think she has all the colors. Her sire was a Tobiano/half arab
registered. Dam was a chestnut.
They said she'd throw pinto babies..... No she has never been
bred...certified pasture potato...though my daughter is thinking of
breeding
her to  a pony for a high end Hunter pony.



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 Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp

 Ride Long and Ride Safe!!

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Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp

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Replies
[RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene, L gin
Re: [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene, Soli Sorokin
Re: [RC] [RC] Flaxen, Sabino gene, Kris