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Dang--that's more like a dollar's-worth!  Thank you Jon.  I'll be handing this note to our beloved farrier when he comes out today.  He's always open to ideas.  Our horse's have similar tendencies I think.  I'll have to ask James (farrier) the angle again--seems as though Bruiser's angle wasn't quite as dramatic, 52 degrees if I recall correctly?  I'm still struggling to learn exactly what that all means.  He did set the rear shoes back a bit and left a trailer.  I can't remember what the shape was, but it was squared off I think.  The vet suggested shortening and speeding up all four feet though--something about creating more agility all the way around.  James wasn't thrilled with that suggestion because he felt he'd shortened Bruisey's toes as much as was healthy.  I agreed with James after looking at how little foot was there on past the frog.  Needless to say, I trust this farrier more than anyone 'cuz he keeps researching the problem but is conservative enough not to do something stupid and dramatic.  

Problem is, the two times I've witnessed the de-shoeing moment, I THOUGHT I saw the front foot stepping onto the side of the other front foot.  For the moment I'm thinking of using boots in order to get him back into shape, then try shoes again.  I also need to quit using the saddle that doesn't quite fit.  It makes him hollow which, you're right, may very well influence his gait.  If I only had my new Freeform already!  I could tell that it didn't hurt him any.  (And the County dressage saddle seems pretty good on him now too since being re-flocked--unfortunately I had to use that saddle on the other horse last time out....)

Bruiser and I thank you for your great, though expensive, ideas.
Mary K.

On Monday, October 24, 2005, at 05:52 AM, Jon.Linderman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> By the time you add up all the 2 cents I am sure you will have a wealth of information. ?Here's my 2 cents.
>
> My horse started losing shoes early in his career: 5 fronts in his 1st 50. ?I tried to look at it less form keeping shoes on, and more from what was the issue ?with his gaits. ?A quick, but bad fix would be to short shoe him or crank the heels way in. ?I looked elsewhere for answers & I percieve you are the long-term person, presently frustrated, not the just git-r-done type. ? Part of my horse's issue is very steep shoulder angle leaving a long contact time & a big rear stride that would come up and clip his heels. ?Part of it was him needing to get stronger in his back and rear end. ?You said your horse ?was heavier and coming off a prolonged pasture potato period & likely like my guy, your horse will carry himself much better as he gets back in shape. ? I no longer use any sort of wedge, but he is alot steeper in front than many horses, as much as 56 degrees, but this matches his shoulder angle & I don't go as steep with other horses I own. ?I also have had great success using a victory elite blunt rear shoe, set back about 1/8", which also gives it some trailer, and he clears nicely now. ? It took several farriers to convince us that this might be a good trick in the hind end for me to try it, but we do not hack the front of the toe off perpendicular to the ground the way I 've seen some people "bull nose" hind feet. ?The steeper front angle and blunter rear shoe sped up his front end & slowed his hind just enough & we've had 1 lost shoe all year. ?I did a 50 CTR in muck this weekend with no problems when I'd usually expect at least 1 sprung or lost shoe in heavy muck. ?I can't see how ?dropping the rear angle would help because the horse will rslide up underneath themselves further. ?We drop the angle on standardbred race horse to get a longer hind stride. ?On my daughters arab that forged & clipped off shoes I used the NB aluminum in front and a heavier steel shoe behind a size larger so it that after I shape it to fit it gives some trailer & his front/rear gaits seem more balanced, he doesn't forge, and hasn't lost or sprung ?a shoe. ?Similar idea, different horse, somewhat different approach. ?Okay maybe thats more like 8-10 cents......
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> Jon