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Re: [RC] AHA - heidiAgain, what does it matter what happened BEFORE DNA or bloodtesting? Its like saying someone who is caucasian cannot claim they are pure IF their ancesters lived in the south during slavery! While it would be folly to assume that NO mistakes or NO cheating occurred, by and large most breeders were pretty conscientious. Otherwise, there would be no meaning to pedigrees whatsoever. #1 importance, is whatever the South American horses were that were exported from Europe--you can bet that they were very solid, well bred individuals, or who would pay the money to have them exported!! Its not like they were mongrels off the street! No one has suggested that these ancestors were not quality horses. In fact, I would stake my next meal that they were exactly what you describe. What they are not is purebred Arabians. I have a high respect for many early ancestors of many breeds. That does not mean I want them in my breeding program which focuses on purebred Arabians. I proudly rode half-Arabs as a kid that were out of mares sired by TB and Stdb Remount sires--they were quality horses, but we certainly never asked that they be registered as purebred Arabians, since they were not. One of our best mares was the product of 5 generations of carefully-recorded TB Remount breeding--no mongrel there, and one of the best mares I ever laid eyes on or rode. That still does not make her a candidate for a registry in which she does not belong! #2. When I was in Hungary, traveling with someone who spoke many languages, the subject of purity became a topic of conversation. We were visiting Babolna State stud farm, which has many Shagya horses, as well as purebred Arabians. One very elderly gentleman, stated in Hungarian, that he worked at Arabian farms in Egypt and before WWII, when racing became important, "boat loads of Thoroughbreds were coming in from England"! And guess what many of the stallions were bred to? Purebred Arabian mares!! And, of course, many of these offspring were conveniently registered "purebred" Arabian, of course! In many cases, excellent records were kept. In some cases, there is question. And the horses in question here were NOT considered "purebred" in Europe--they had their own very precise way of recording these horses. 3. The same thing happened when the Russians stole horses and took them back to Poland, Rumania etc. Many times the Hungarians and Austrians gave them registration papers that were not legitimate. They didn't care to cooperate--they were losing their best horses!! Which is why those without clear provenance are suspect. Again, that is not the case with those in question here. Their provenance is very clear--and clearly not Arabian. 4. Would it not be wise to select bloodstock that meets the conformation and performance standards you as an individual desire and forget about the fact that 20-25 generations back something occurred that we would not condone today? Otherwise it seems like a futile attempt to define "*purity"!* First off, your first phrase is integral to the breeding programs of any respectable breeders. The second part of your first sentence is a bit misleading--these horses are not "20-25" generations back--they are only a handful of generations back. We are talking infusions of non-Arab blood that occurred only 90-some-odd years ago. While it is possible that these horses could be that far back in a handful of pedigrees, on average, they are more likely only 6-8 generations back, and could be much closer. FWIW, I have a stallion on my place that still shows Mesaoud in a 5-generation pedigree--and Mesaoud preceeded these European imports to SA by a decade or two. We are talking about fairly close-up crosses here, in many cases. Never mind how many of these horses have been linebred. Just to give you an example of the impact of a horse from just a tad earlier--Mesaoud, as mentioned above. I have another stallion on my place that does NOT have Mesaoud any closer than 7 generations back. But if one does the math, he is just a fraction shy of 20% Mesaoud by pedigree! I don't think I have a horse on the place that is less than 12% Mesaoud. Even though he ranges from the one 5-generation position in the pedigree back to 15+ generations back, he was such a common ancestor that his impact is staggering. The programs in which these SA horses bred on were ones that provided stock to other breeders--and I'd wager that many of the horses in question have multiple crosses to these horses, and carry enough of a percentage to have a major impact genetically. Heidi =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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