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Re: [RC] Why by from the killers? - heidiJena, Works of wisdom to give us pause to think. Another thing to ponder is, "are endurance riders in general more prone to get a "pound dog" that spend big bucks to a breeder or worse a puppy mill?" I don't know but I will tell you my dog is a "pound hound" and he is a wonderful dog. Could this spill over to how they also look at their other pets - their horses? I always look at the horses my neighbor buys at the auction puts a little time in and turns around as one more horse saved and going to a good home. Truman There have been several interesting comments on this thread, and I think one has to step back and take a look at several aspects of the "killer auction" situation. First of all, I don't consider my horses to be pets. Yes, they are my friends, but they are working companions, and as such, have to have traits that a pet dog does not need to possess. As long as my pet dog has a good disposition, he can get by with all sorts of other "issues" that simply can't be managed or tolerated in an athlete that has to carry my body that many miles and still be in good condition doing it. I've raised purebred dogs, too--and it doesn't even equate to horse breeding. (One reason I quit breeding dogs is because of the differences--there simply was not a "functional market" for dogs like there is for horses, where one is rewarded for breeding the soundest and best-dispositioned dogs that fit the breed standard, even if they don't fit the extremes of what the show ring is doing.) Secondly, Angie and Barbara have made a couple of related comments, and a few other posters have tossed in some related comments as well--with regard to Skip Lightfoot's horses--they never even made it to the killer auction. They were on their way there, but they CAME from a very intentional breeding program that was being dispersed in spite due to a family dispute. Some folks knew that, and managed to get hands on the lot of them, and get them placed. As Angie stated, "even Heidi's best foal" could end up at the killer auction. The breeder has no control over this once the horse is sold. I've had a few go there--I've been lucky so far in that either I've been able to "rescue" them or other endurance riders have been there at the right time. I think it was Jena that pointed out that she got a good Kellogg gelding at auction. My point is that the "rescues" from the killer auctions that succeed still have the intentional breeding that comes from a good breeder. Darn few "random" rescue horses have been successful. The notion that one can readily find good horses at killer auctions pretty much came about when the Arab show ring took the extreme turn toward the "asterisk" craze and the conformational extremes. Many breeders of traditional stock (the very same stock that is carefully hoarded now and bred to produce functional riding horses) ended up dispersing some really OUTSTANDING horses because they didn't "fit" the new craze. Since the dynamics of breeding have changed, one rarely finds such gems at auction anymore. But once in awhile, there still is the odd family dispute, or death of an owner, or owner who has bought a good one and who just has a sudden change in life direction, or whatever, that causes such gems to surface at auction. But it also takes a VERY good eye to search out such needles in a haystack. On the flip side, one can go to people who intentionally breed horses to be riding animals, and one can look at the entire menu, so to speak. One can find the horse that fits the specific niche one is trying to fill much more readily, and can also get his history, in most cases. Most times in life, it is true that you get what you pay for. (In response to the "high-dollar" horses that turn out to be duds as riding horses--in most such cases, one has paid for "famous" names in pedigrees or for advertising hype--not for careful breeding and riding type.) For several years, I had an "in" at the kill plant in Redmond, Oregon (an astute set of eyes who worked there). In all those years, we found a total of TWO horses that were "worth it." They were likely a pair of brothers, as they were two peas in a pod, except for their color, and they were about a year apart in age. I brought those home and rode them for 90 days and sold them to Chuck Stalley. Both of them went on to have endurance careers; one was "Harry" that won Tevis. I don't know their breeding, but by the looks of them, they had some old McCoy breeding or some such, and likely some Babson breeding (had a bit of a Fadjur look to them). That was two horses in about a three or four year time span, given the hundreds that went through their lot. By the same token, I just looked at some percentages the other day on our breeding program. Over a third of the horses that we've EVER bred have gone to the endurance circuit. A third of those have gone over 1000 miles, and several are still in the early stages of their careers and already knocking on the 1000-mile door. The percentages are skewed by the fact that we still OWN another third or so of what we've bred, and they have never been raced--they are in our broodband, producing more good riding horses. I look at programs that are just being "discovered" by endurance riders--such as Michael Bowling's program, which has produced horses such as Benjih and San Ffrancisco, as well as others out there performing very well but at not such a high profile. Or programs such as Maria Wallis's that produce horses such as the one that Christoph Schork (who a poster was asking about just the other day) is currently riding. (And as Maria pointed out, his other horses also come from similar roots.) Endurance riders have reaped the benefits of breeders like Lois Russell and Marjorie Van Gilder--their horses are very much sought after in the NW and elsewhere. Breeders like Jim and Jackie Bumgarner have demonstrated tremendous consistency. THAT is what you can't find in the random "killer auction" horse. Does EVERY foal from a good breeder make a top-notch endurance horse? No. But odds are the good endurance breeder also won't try to sell you the ones that aren't apt to. I have two horses happily "doing their thing" here locally in the 4-H program. The beauty of breeding for riding type is that those not apt to be "champions" still have a niche in riding homes. And I'm sure other breeders would echo my sentiment that I don't want to sell a horse to someone that won't do the job that that person wants to do. Most breeders try hard to match the horse and the rider to help ensure the success of both. So when you buy from a breeder (at least a conscientious one) you also get an experienced set of eyes to help you in your search--if one doesn't have what you want, they often know someone else who does. And so on. I have no issues with folks who want to take the time to search the auctions and to try to find the wheat among the chaff. It is a thankless job. But one has to make a choice about what it is they want from a horse, and to shop accordingly. If one wants good odds of success, one doesn't go to the killer auctions--unless, such as in the case of the Lightfoot horses, one is literally following the truck there from the breeder's... Heidi =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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