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Re: [RC] Points of View - Joe LongOn Sat, 18 Oct 2003 17:14:37 -0600, "E.L. Ashbach" <samaia@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Joe Long wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:02:18 -0600, "E.L. Ashbach" <samaia@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Boo hoo for new riders, again, their labors are large. I see it's too much to bear, a sacrifice too large for endurance riders to bear...let's definitely protect their freedom to immediately over ride their horses. It's so easy to use sarcasm to cloud an issue, and so easy for promoters of "nannyism" to rationalize their rules and controls. It's so easy to let whining about personal freedom and the rights of the individual, and glorification of a pre-existing set of made up rules prevent us from taking positive action, from another point of view. ;-) I was hoping to get away from the "Boo hoo for new riders" and "whining about personal freedom" style of arguing this case. The issues here are the welfare of our horses *and* the character of our sport. No rule exists in a vacuum, rules don't always work the way we hope, and rules have unintended consequences. Opposing your proposal does not mean one is whining about personal freedom, or stubbornly defending a status quo. No speed limit is going to prevent overriding of horses. There is NO -- NONE -- NADA -- arbitrary speed that is right for all of the horses on a given trail on a given day. Why are you talking about *all* horses? I'll say it again, this is not a rule for all horses on the trail on a given day, unless they're all beginners, of course. ;-P OK, amend the sentence to read "all of the beginner's horses" and it is still just as valid. ... AERC will consider you a Rookie Rider until you have completed 200 miles of competition, and during the Rookie Rider period you must ride within the following minimum and maximum time limits. 25 miles - min ride time 4 hours ride time. 50 miles - min ride time 8 hours ride time 100 miles min ride time 18 hours ride time Egad, this is even worse -- totally arbitrary, no consideration of trail difficulty or weather conditions. And by implying that that riding time is "safe," it could increase overstressing of horses, not reduce it. But Joe, the new riders this is aimed at are *not the beginner tail enders* for whom a min. time is *totally irrelvant* anyway. The rule would apply to all new riders, regardless of who it is aimed at. The ones who "need" it the most are the ones most likely to circumvent it (e.g., race to a point 1/4 mile from the finish, then they wait there for their time to be up). I'm thinking back to my first 200 miles of rides. Started out green as grass. One 25, ridden well below 4 hours. Four 50's, all ridden below 8 hours. Yeah, I sure ruined that horse. Joe, a minimum means you can't ride *faster* than that. The *slower* part is controlled by the maximum since we're counting time here. Below means slower than, I hope? That's really good for YOU. You're not who this rule whould be for, see? And not for the nice new folks, Max and Lisa, who used LD this year the way it was intended to be used, either. Keep looking for who it's for, and I'm sure you'll find them! They're out there! :-) Sorry, I was not clear. I meant "below" in ride time -- that is, faster in miles-per-hour. Less than three hours for the 25, actually, and in the 6.5 -- 7.5 hour range for the fifties. So yes the rule would have definitely affected me in my early rides. And it is entirely possible that Kahlil would not have had his long career had such a rule been in place back then -- because I would not have learned some of the very valuable lessons I learned on those first rides. And it's all arbitrary (and I mean more than endurance here ;-) ), and I think I did mention, (didn't I?), that the ride manager or head vet could also be relied on to set the fastest acceptable pace to be set for the new folks. No, they CANNOT! That is part of the crux of the problem. Unless you know the horse, and are out there on the trail with the horse, you can't know how he's doing at any speed. Whatever speed they set will be slower than some horses need, and too fast for others. So what happens when someone rides at that speed and their horse ends up on the jugs, and they say "But I just rode the way you told me to?" I don't know who says, but I know this type of rule would be a *real benefit* for some folks, since they don't know or can't control themselves. Ah, here is the crux of the matter. And you know what? If the vet checks and taking finishing time when the pulse is down won't slow some hotshoes down, what makes you think a minimum time limit will? It is too easy to circumvent. Or are you planning to put timers out every mile or so, and not allowing rookies to pass them until their time arrives? ... That's pretty much what I thought you were advocating, and that is what I am vehemently opposed to. Why? On what grounds? I hoped I'd been making that clear througout (as have others, such as Heidi). The policy is a) unnecessary, b) wouldn't work very well, c) is likely to have bad unintended consequences, and d) goes against the very heart of what endurance rides are. IMO it is exactly the WRONG way to deal with the problem, sends some wrong messages, and is likely to have unintended consequences. What is the right way? What we have been doing is working pretty well, but no doubt we can and will improve veterinary check policies and procedures. The defninition of an endurance ride in our Bylaws includes the provision "There shall be no minum time limit." I'm glad this proposal could not be done without a Bylaws change, because I think that is quite unlikely to pass. I'll get out my Bylaws and check later, but I've had more than my fair share of creating corporations and the legal system, and legal matters are flexible, if change is determined to be in the best interest of the organization. The Bylaws can be amended, but as is usually the case with bylaws they are difficult to amend, and I sincerly doubt we could ever get a 2/3 majority to approve a change such as you are advocating. I'm pretty sure that if we create the *racing* part of Endurance (with no time restrictions and full on personal freedom to the max) as a privilege to be earned (READ THIS FOLLOWING PART WELL - IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO WHAT I'M SAYING - by the new folks and those with a financial interest in overlooking the long-term best interest of the horse in the first few "performances"), instead of a "right" to be lost, we'll be miles ahead in the future. I think we've about covered this question and should let further discussion go for now. -- Joe Long jlong@xxxxxxxx http://www.rnbw.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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