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RE: [RC] Rapid Pulse Recovery/Real Data - Bob MorrisAfter looking at the information addressed by John Teter's post I realized some interesting things. The fourth place finisher took 20 minutes at the first vet stop! Was this horse over ridden? Obviously not as it finished high in the standings and had very good recovery times at all the other checks. The eighth place horse took 222 minutes for recovery at the fifth and last vet check and still finished well. Was this horse over ridden" But what about those horses that recovered well at the vc's they encountered but did not complete the ride? Were they over ridden? Then consider exactly how the recovery is accomplished. Was the application of cold water a factor? Was the horse really cooled down internally or just externally enough to lower the heart rate? Just the recovery time, as advocated in the attendant article by MMS, is not the entire story. If additional sets of data on FEI rides is available, what further information would be realized. Is there any one willing to postulate that a horse that does not recover to basic criteria in 15 minutes has been over ridden and not fit to be considered competitive, only a completer? Even when it comes in fourth? Consider one horse that was six minutes for recovery at each VC. Did not complete for metabolic reasons after the finish. No, The rapid pulse recovery is not the simple answer. The big question is why did one horse with a "poor recovery" finish fourth and in good condition, while a horse with "excellent recoveries" was eliminated for a metabolic condition? The research is needed, but it must be carefully developed to furnish a reliable conclusion. And to develop a very solid reliable conclusion, definitive questions must be postulated that will lead to such a conclusion. Now, to start things off correctly, how about a few well thought out questions that will lead in the proper direction. Bob Morris Bob Morris Morris Endurance Enterprises Boise, ID -----Original Message----- From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Diane Trefethen Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 12:55 PM To: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [RC] Rapid Pulse Recovery/Real Data John Teeter wrote: all of that info is collected by FEI RMs and sent with the results for all FEI endurance races. There's alot of data there. basically as summarized in: http://www.endurance.net/oreana/arabiannights/2005/100Detail edResults. htm phase lengths/all the hold times/ all the various rider times etc. While the data is on FEI events, the stats would be basically the same in the area of interest (the leaders of an AERC race). In other words, half the data necessary to determine to what degree the failure of a horse's pulse to recover in 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes correlates to that horse's having been overridden already exists, right? The other half, determining what constitutes "overridden", might be a little harder to nail down. First, "overridden" has to be defined in terms of the individual horse, not in terms of how hard or fast it was ridden. In their primes, I believe both Cash and Rio could be cantered and galloped 75 miles - no problem. Hardly anyone on Ridecamp owns a horse that could be cantered and galloped even 50 miles and have that horse recover in 15 minutes. So the first test of "overridden" would be did the horse recover in the 30 minutes necessary to obtain a completion at the end of the ride. Any horse that incurred a metabolic or lameness problem which required veterinary treatment, within 24 hours of completing a ride, would be a candidate for "overridden". If treatment was administered at the ride, all well and good. But what about after the horse leaves the ride? How do we track that? Does putting a horse on an IV 2 hours after arriving home make that horse any less "overridden" than the one who was treated at the ride? The good news is that these missed examples of overriding would contribute to a laxer not stricter Rapid Pulse Recovery rule. I say good news because if you are going to tighten up criteria for something and one of the reasons for this tightening is an unproven or unsubstantiated fact, clearly you are at risk for tightening unnecessarily. Would these be the only two criteria for defining "overridden"? Assuming AERC put together a committee, studied the FEI data, and determined that there was a distinct correlation between retarded recoveries and overriding, THAT would be the time to look at MMS's proposal seriously and work out the details. I think just using a litmus test of 15 minutes for placing, without any proof that a horse's taking 16 minutes for its pulse to recover proves that the horse was "overridden" and without any definition of what "overridden" means, would be premature. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- =-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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