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[Fwd: Re: [RC] [RC] Question on odd heart rate on two TWH] - Keith Kibler


--- Begin Message --- 
Hello Kim/ KP
  First of all
kp ross wrote:*/the foxtrot is a very eary gait (so far) metabolically means

I should not rush to answer without re-reading my answer, even though I am about to be late for court :-)
I am passionate about this, and it is one heck of a lot more fun than practicing law.


It should have been, easy gait, not early gait!


Now I am stuck in bold print, unintentionally mind you because I quoted you . Sorry, I cant seem to stop it.

Speaking of being sorry. Please accept my apology if I seemed to be rude or demeaning in any way by suggesting, you "needed" to trot.
I was wrong, and ask that you forgive me. I have had that come up and i very wrongly assumed your were like that.

Your later post clarified some things that I should have asked of you before I answered in the first place.
I would say their is a 90%+ chance that your hoses has a structural issue that needs to be fixed if possible before he is ridden in endurance or even long
trail rides. I have no idea what that is but it could be anything from a stiff stifle to a hip issue. Someone with diagnostic abilities needs to thoroughly go over the horse (inho). Think about this please. If you are a distance runner, which I am and your (my) hrt rate at a 9 minute pace is usually 135 and suddenly my (your) hrt rate goes to 90% of my max rate, which is about what your horse is doing, it is a signal that something if very wrong.
I would say there is less than a 10 % percent chance that it is psychologically involved.

Imho, his ruckus in gait, and his desire to trot, and to trot at times with a really high hrt rate all go back to being somehow involved with a physical problem. Do you know why he is no longer a show horse? Was he shown flat shod or padded? If padded, could he have been sored? (yuch, yuch , spit , spit, now MY heartrate is going up!)
I would love to help you in any way I can. I gave you my personal email addy. If you ever want to talk in the evening live about this. email me and I will email back our home phone and my personal cell number.
I care about your horse. 

Keith
Shawnee Sunrise Farm
Gaited Endurance

(does this mean that all my dictation the rest of the day is stuck in caps?)

/*
What do you mean by */the foxtrot is a very eary gait (so far) metabolically/ . . *Have you had problems with this . . . By the way, I most always go for the turtle award and not speed . . . I just know that if my MFT knows that there are horses out there, she will be gaiting quickly . . . She foxtrots but does change gaits depending on terrain and speed . . . What I usually do is as for the speed and she will choose the gait . . . 7 mph would be my choice . . thanks, kim from lakeport

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 6:53 AM, Keith Kibler <kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

Kp
So far I think it depends upon the horse, with the caveat, that my
working opinion (so far) that the qualifier is the issue is gait
itself. Not all mfts foxtrot, the foxtrot is a very eary gait (so
far) metabolicly. That being said, it is not as fast as a rack. My
best horse Blues, runs out of foxtrot about 9 mph. His rack has
been clocked on gps at 21.9 mph
Now I would of course never endurance at anything like that.
Each gaited horse has different gaits and speeds of those gaits
and different hrt rate issues. Throw into that the fact that we
need to break up muscle use (like the arabians do in cantering
breaks from the trot) and to do that my wife and I go into canter
breaks two. One of my most fun moments at the state fair express
50 last weekend was taking a very pronounced canter break with an
arab for about 1/2 mile. I dont usually let Blues canter in
training (most of the non endurance gaited crowd I ride with think
it is a no no, but I disagree for a horse settled in gait well)
but he can canter with the best trotting horse when asked to.
The canter break really seemed to refresh him.
So, my answer is that I believe it is totally dependent on
the horse. We have 2 mft and one twh that we are currently using
in endurance. The twh I am training to sell as a turn key horse
ready for someone to race or ride. We have 2 4 year olds I am
getting ready to start with a slow ld this year as well as other
trail horses. Each horse is different and I think the difference
is more horse related than breed related.
Keith
Shawnee Sunrise Farm
Gaited Endurance 

        ----- Original Message -----
        *From:* kp ross <mailto:mamaross@xxxxxxxxx>
        *To:* Keith Kibler <mailto:kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx>
        *Sent:* Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:41 AM
        *Subject:* Re: [RC] Question on odd heart rate on two TWH

Keith . . .

        Since you have MFT and TW horses, I am curious what you have
        found with regards to endurance/distance . . . Have you found
        that one or the other does better or do you believe that it is
        just the individual . . .  I ask this question because when I
        look in the AERC records, I see mostly TWH being successful in
        endurance . . . And because of this I wonder if it is people's
        access to TWH or because they just do a better job of it . . .
        Hope this question makes sense . . .

        I have a MFT mare that is almost 10 years old . . . Have had
        her for only about 6 months . . . Before I owned her, she
        pretty much set in her 24 X 24 paddock for 1 to 2 years . . .
        I am not sure what she did before that . . . So I am "legging
        her up"  by doing MONGO steep and lung and heart pumping hills
        mostly at a walk . . . She gets out anywhere from 1 to 4 times
        per week and has turnout in a 7 acre field . . . I am planning
        and hoping to do LD's this year with her building up to multi
        day 50's next year . . . She doesn't know how to trot . . . We
        have been gaiting and cantering a tad and basically just
        enjoying each others company . . . *Question:*  My friend says
        that she doesn't think she is ready because I haven't been
        gaiting for distance . . . Kind of like going from doing 15
        miles at a power walk to 25 miles gaiting . . . . Any thoughts
        . . . I don't want to hurt her and am willing to wait if that
        is what is best for her.

Thanks for your thoughts . . . kim from lakeport

        PS . . . I call my other endurance horse Jack for short (Jack
        Hammer) . . . He is my Arab gelding . . .

        On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Keith Kibler
        <kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:

            We raise, trail ride and endurance mfts and twhs. I would
            say the hrt rate of your twh means you should not be
            training nor riding him in a trot. We could go into a long
            debate about about horse breed history and genes which
            would not supply an answer but the truth is that the only
            group that I hear every talk about about trotting a twh
            are lateraly trained riders who want to ride a trot.  They
            may see their horse trot at liberty and then have the trot
            as one of their saddle gaits.
             I am not a show person. I have no interest in that world,
            except to go to a few a year as I do eventing
            competitions. Their is a reason the trot is not a twh show
            gait. I would say that reason is that the horse was not
            genetically predisposed to the gait. I think this is being
            proven by your hrt rt issue.
             Like every who rides a twh or mft with twh bloodlines, I
            spend a lot of time working on gait to make sure I don't
            ride a pace while setting gait on a younger horse. We
            train these horse for use and sale and currently have 11.
            I have yet to have one trot under saddle.
             I would say your differences between your horses proves
            the conlcusion, these critters were not designed to trot
            under saddle. Does he have a running walk or a rack, a
            saddle rack or an amble?  If you want to email me off
            board, kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:kwkibler@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
            or on ridecamp is fine too. Good post, thank you.

            Keith Kibler
            Shawnee Sunrise Farm
            Gaited Endurance


            ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anderson, Kristie
            Lynn" <aggiekris@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:aggiekris@xxxxxxxxxxxx>>
            To: "ridecamp" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
            <mailto:ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
            Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 9:57 PM
            Subject: [RC] Question on odd heart rate on two TWH



                Ok, so a friend rode one of my TWH boys to try his
                first 50 this past Feb and noticed something very odd
                with his HR. I've never ridden this horse in a monitor
                before. This horse (8y/o gelding) is able to perform a
                running walk, trot, pace, canter, and what I call his
                "lateral canter" under saddle. I prefer to condition
                him at a trot with some normal cantering. I don't
                permit him to perform the lateral gaits, as often
                they're associated with him misbehaving. At liberty,
                this horse trots nearly 90% of the time, and only
                tends to pace when he gets nervous. He's in reasonably
                good shape.

                His rider noticed that on the HR monitor, he had a HR
                of about 170-180 at a trot. He was about the same when
                asked for a normal canter. The rider was very
                concerned, and got the horse to start pacing, and the
                HR dropped to 120-130 range, and was similar at his
                lateral canter and running walk. He only performs the
                running walk at the start of the ride when he's
                excited. All the values were pretty consistent.
                Because of this, even though I wasn't keen on the idea
                (but a HR that high and that consistent is rather
                alarming), he pushed the horse to stay in a pace for
                the duration of the ride. He was pulled at 40 miles
                for a 16/18 CRI. Took a long time for the pulse to
                drop to criteria. No lameness, no obvious problems,
                just the inverted CRI.

                Three weeks later, I took him to another 50, which he
                completed. Did not have a monitor on him. His CRI at
                the first check was 13/12, at the second was 13/13. He
                looked great, no problems, and was drinking well (this
                horse is a poor eater, but was eating better than he
                normally does). We gaited the first 3ish miles, and
                trotted the rest of the time. Minimal pacing except
                for some tight single track. Very technical trail,
                more difficult than he's ever seen before, and a very
                tough first 50. Had lots of time on the last loop and
                could tell he was getting tired, so did about 30%
                trotting and the rest walking, having a nice chat with
                another rider through the loop. Had a CRI of 17/17 at
                the end but was given a completion as he looked fine.
                I'm not overly concerned about that since it was a
                tough trail and his first 50, and it wasn't inverted.

                I've ridden him at home some with a different monitor
                and i'm finding similar readings as before. Doesn't
                matter which diagonal i'm on, and if i put him in a
                small circle, it doesn't matter what direction I go. I
                can't for the life of me convince him to pace at home,
                so I'll have to wait and see on that end of things. At
                the trot, he starts out at 120-130, then after several
                minutes begins a steady climb to 170-180 and hangs
                there. If i ask him to walk or to stop, he plummets
                right back down to 60 fairly quickly.

Any thoughts on this??

                My second one is the opposite end of the spectrum. He
                had never been ridden in a monitor until this weekend,
                and now that i've got one, i decided i'd see where he
                was at. This one is also a TWH, a little younger at
                6y/o, and in better shape, as he was mentally more
                prepared for rides a lot sooner. He did 300+ LD miles
                last season (i think), and this season has done two
                50s and one 75, and I'm planing on trying a 100 on him
                at the end of the month. Unlike the other horse, he
                performs a flat walk, running walk, and rack as well
                as a canter. Didn't do any cantering on him, as it's
                pretty fast, and we were riding slow with a friend,
                but I discovered that his HR rarely (at least that
                day) goes above 100. At his normal speed he does
                rides, a 7ish mph running walk, he was sometimes as
                low as 72 bpm. Do any of you other gaited horse riders
                see this with your horses, or is mine just a freak? No
                wonder he pulses down faster than my Arab!

Kris

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