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RE: [RC] [RC] RC RC:Thanks Leonard - heidi

Nik, here are a few points to ponder.
 
1)  A 500 kg horse "contains" about 20 kg of electrolytes.  Of that, about 40% is calcium, so he contains about 12 kg of of other e-lytes.
 
2)  While the losses in sweat seem like a lot, do the math sometime on the amount of sodium, potassium, and chloride in forages.  It is relatively high, and horses that eat the amounts that our endurance horses ingest far more e-lytes in one day's worth of hay than the calculated losses on a 100-mile ride. 
 
3)  The "soup" in the horse's hindgut consists of what he ate 2 days ago--in other words, his gut contains at least two days' worth of feed.  See point #2.  The hindgut of the properly fed horse is a huge electrolyte reserve, as well as a fluid reserve.
 
4)  As for fluid, an average horse in temperate weather consumes about 5-10 gallons per day.  )That's a shade less than 20-40 liters for those of you in countries more progressive than the US of A who use the metric system.)  A lactating broodmare on a hot day will drink upwards of 100 gallons per day.  (For the aforementioned, that's a bit less than 400 liters.)  Although a horse's stomach only holds about 2 gallons (8 liters, for the aforementioned), water is absorbed so rapidly that IF the horse does not have his cellular mechanisms for transporting water across the lining of the stomach impaired (say, by too many electrolytes), he can often drink up to five gallons (20 liters, for the English-unit-challenged from more progressive countries) in one go.  At any rate, replacing fluid losses on the order that Nik mentions (7.5-10 gallons, for those of you in the US of A who are metric-challenged) is not a difficult thing for the horse to do in the course of the ride.
 
Bottom line--the key here is keeping the horse EATING.  If he eats well, he will generally drink well, which in turn will sufficiently hydrate the food that he ingests so that he can benefit.  But really, he is drawing from that great huge vat in his hindgut, if you have fed him adequately going into the ride--every volume of "hindgut soup" that he dehydrates into a ball of manure gives him both e-lytes and fluids.  What he has to do is to keep eating to keep that all moving, so it doesn't just sit there.
 
Now let's look at the flip side.  Let's pour a bunch of e-lytes into his stomach.  Critters are tough, and his gut will try like hell to assimilate the stuff, but he will have to draw fluid out of the bloodstream (and in turn out of cells) and into the stomach in order to process that big wad of caustic stuff.  And if you mess with this mechanism enough, you end up with horses that actually reverse the direction of the flow of fluid so that it tends to go INTO the gut from the body instead of into the body from the gut.  This condition in the upper small intestine is called anterior enteritis, and it is on the rise in endurance horses in this country.  Left unrefluxed, this fluid can actually result in rupture of the stomach.  (Been a few cases of that in recent years.)  This is also called "third-spacing" of fluid. 
 
The subject of ulcers has been discussed here, and there is also a connection there to e-lytes.  Oh, great--you need this horse to eat, so you stick stuff in his stomach that makes it hurt so that he doesn't want to eat.
 
I'll add that there are some specific situations where e-lyte supplementation is necessary and advisable--but on review of the amounts of fluids and e-lytes involved in consumption and loss (never mind the flip side of what can happen when you give too much), I can't think of ANY excuse for giving the big walloping doses that are currently in vogue in this sport in the US of A.
 
Kudos to the French for doing their homework--Leonard is right, you get good performance by first breeding good horses, then raising them right, and then conditioning them right, feeding them right, and putting good riders on them.  E-lytes are not a shortcut to the end of that formula.
 
Heidi


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [RC] RC RC:Thanks Leonard
From: "Nik Isahak Abdullah" <drnikisahak@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, January 09, 2007 10:47 am
To: heidi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Leonard.Liesens@xxxxxxxxxx, ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hi Heidi ,
       It is interesting that we are divided on as 'simple 'an issue as EL
on a ride .Make one wonder where the absolute truth is .But let us reexamine
the facts in an average 160 km ride :
1.Water loss ....average 30 to 40 litres,may be more depending on the heat
of the day,but not really much more if the humidity is high as well which
put a cap on the sweating mechanism { which also put a cap on the horse
ability to go at speed on a hot and humid day ,which is another story and
issue }
2.An average loss of around 300 to 400 grams of salt ,sodium chloride {0.3
to 0.4 kg!} ,45 to 50 grams of potassium loss and a smaller amount of
magnesium etc etc .
3.The max one can ever get to replacing sodium chloride loss in those
commercially produced EL gel packs{ 50 ml syringe} is probably less than
2000 mg or 2 gram if I recall correctly .Even if we were to correct only a
quarter of the deficit ,we would need 40 shots of those big ampoules!!!!40
ampoules in  a horse with varying degree of dehydration may probably do more
harm than good .Majority usually dispense with 4 ampoules and if you are
Leonard Liesens ,outside the confine of his CDQ in a foreign land we are
probably looking at 2 or as he put it ,only one ampoule at the start as a
bad recurring habit .
4.And finally we have the French and the Belgium teams doing so very well at
top level FEI competitions with a no EL' policy .Never mind the French ,one
can feel at any one ride that it is close to a 'national' religion . The
Belgium ,if I get my facts right has only less than 400 registered riders
and horses and there are doing so well !I am sure EL is just a minor part of
their story but they must be in total in the right flight path .

 Now what would I do on a ride on a hot humid day in Kuala Lumpur ? The
next time I feel compelled to syringe down a whole load of nasty ,sharp on
the gastric mucosae EL down my horse's throat I would think of the French
and Leonard .May be go more slow on the EL .Concentrate on preempting the
more dreaded dehydration issue perhaps .

Nik



>From: heidi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: Leonard.Liesens@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>CC: drnikisahak@xxxxxxxxxxx, ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: RE: [RC]   RC RC:Thanks Leonard
>Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 08:50:05 -0700
>
>Obviously I have no experience in Malaysia, either, but to add to
>what Leonard has said here...
>
>One of our winningest riders here who normally uses zero
>electrolytes has a "hot and humid" formula that works for her--and like
>Leonard's suggestion, it is not high in raw electrolytes.  She does
>a mixture of about 25% e-lytes and 75% yogurt, and then gives something
>like 2-3 ounces of that mixture ONCE at the beginning of the ride, and
>then no more.
>
>One of the very serious repercussions with overuse of electrolytes
>is that critters (not just horses, but humans, etc.) will "third-space"
>fluids--in other words, begin to pull fluid back into the gut to bring
>the concentration of the e-lytes there back to normal when they can't
>transport the e-lytes across the gut wall fast enough or when the
>concentration is already high in the fluids in the bloodstream and the
>cells due to dehydration.  This even more rapidly dehydrates the
>critter.  I keep thinking about Bev Gray's horse in Dubai having
>seizures on the overly aggressive e-lyte doses that were more or less
>forced on the horses by the leadership of the squad that year...
>
>Heidi
>
>
>
>
>
>With El, I just don't know what would be the best in
>Malaysia. Just guessing and giving an answer would be ridiculous. You
>guys there should try to launch some tests.
>
>Example : weighting
>horses before and after events (80 or 120K)
>trying a few without EL
>and the others with El (but please calculate the total amount
>administered otherwise simply saying that you give EL make no sense if
>the horse receives just lets say 3 doses of P&W for the whole
>race).
>trying isotonic EL (in the drinking water)
>callculating
>the quantity drank by the horse (not that difficult, counting the
>number of movments of the (sorry forgot the english name), but you
>understand what I mean.
>
>I can just tell that our horse at the
>Terengganu rides didn't receive very much of EL, not the huge amounts
>that I sometimes see administered in the US. They got the Foran Refuel
>that I think (I have to check) is very low in terms of raw
>EL.
>

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