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RE: [RC] 30 Min rule - Jim HollandAgain, you are changing the subject again. We are not talking about deaths at rides here. The subject is metabolic pulls and the impact on the long term welfare of our horses. Isn't that the reason for this "30 minute rule" being proposed? However, I would have no problem with a rule that also addressed consistent lameness....maybe that SHOULD be included, but your proposed rule change would have even less impact on that problem. As in a court of law, or in an "inquiry committee" (this is already a part of AERC), we have the ability to handle situations such as Barb's where there are mitigating circumstances. There are always exceptions....in all walks of life. Going back to my DUI analogy, there are people arrested for DUI who haven't had anything to drink, but are ill, reacting to a medication, etc. It is irrational to judge the need for a rule on "exceptions". If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, we assume it IS a duck until we find out differently. In my case with Sunny, if there were a rule in place that says three consecutive lameness pulls disqualifies you for the season, that would have been OK with me...even though I knew they were just because I had no way at that time to fix his foot and put the shoe back on. I spent a fortune on Hoof Builder. I would have simply given up on him and looked for another horse, because I could not at that point have complied with such a rule with him. Sometimes rules/laws are made because a small percentage of the population chooses abuse over what should be common sense and unfortunately leads to some inconvenience for the majority of the general public...but it is the RIGHT decision to make those laws. Bruce, "laws", and "punishment for misbehavior" are a part of our society. Endurance riders are just plain old run-of-the mill Joes like everyone else. They may be riders, but they have the same egos, arrogance, stupidity, ignorance, and yes, don't-give-a-damn attitude as John Q. Public. None of us (including me <grin>) are perfect, and we must have rules/laws to protect the public, and we NEED (don't have) rules to protect our horses in Endurance. I fear your mind is closed on the need for this. (As are those of our AERC leaders) Sometimes it's very hard to do the "right" thing when you are subjected to "peer pressure". You appear to fit right in as a Board of Directors member in that regard. I will be happy to "discuss" this with you one-on-one, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to quote my "evidence" here. Unlike AERC, I have no way to "document" over a long period of time, but I have done some selective tedious manual studies on metabolic pulls by rider from the online stats. Why don't you do this....ask Mike Maul write a little program that will list each AERC member along with their number of metabolic pulls? That shouldn't be difficult. You MIGHT learn something interesting....and maybe useful. I'm going to drop posting on this subject now, Bruce. In the words of Robert Heinlein, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and annoys the pig". Jim, Sun of Dimanche+, and Mahada Magic Richard T. "Jim" Holland Three Creeks Farm 175 Hells Hollow Drive Blue Ridge, Ga 30513 (706) 258-2830 www.threecreeksarabians.com Callsign KI4BEN -----Original Message----- From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bruce Weary DC Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:59 PM To: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [RC] 30 Min rule Jim-- The evidence hasn't been boiled down to statistics, but it wouldn't be hard to do. After reviewing all the official information available regarding horse deaths in the last two years, there are some interesting things to note. First, there's been almost no evidence of ulcers found in all the post-mortems done. No deaths were determined to be connected to ulcers, even partially. Many of the deaths were either accidents or unrelated to how the horse was ridden--broken leg, broken back, falls, CVA's, etc.,. I would have to go to my files and count, but a safe estimate would be less than three are suggestive of blatant overriding. The rest are the result of an unfortunate series of physiological events, some of which we may never understand, that happened in a variety of candidates, leading to a catastrophic GI event and led to death or euthanization, and not blamed on abusive levels of exercise. In a few cases, bringing the horse to the vet sooner may have brought about a better outcome. Jim, the hell-bent, rein-slappin', fire-breathin', win-at-all cost, kill my horse tryin' rider isn't showing up. At least he's not killing horses very often. He may be out there, and overriding his horse, but his horse is surviving. Technically. I know this seems paradoxical, but it's true. And we have a responsibility to move ahead with this information in mind, not press on with conspiracy theories and accusations of ineptitude or political malfeasance. Regarding lameness issues, it's not necessarily true that lameness doesn't cause horses to die. Chronic lameness is one of the top reasons horses are euthanized. The horse's useful life may be shortened by how it is ridden. Regardless, the concern of the WHC is not limited to horse deaths, but includes all forms of horse abuse, as well. Overriding and inducing lameness, or not allowing lameness to resolve fully before the next campaign, is tantamount to abuse. I was being a little facetious, Jim, by using your example of three consecutive lamenesses. But metabolic disorders can occur in series with innocent or unexplainable causes, too. Barb McGann's story exemplifies that beautifully. How would you propose we punish her for her struggle with tying up? She doesn't sound like Black Bart to me. You came forth with an explanation that mitigates your responsibility in your lameness pulls, in your view. I suggest, and the evidence suggests, there would often be mitigating circumstances that would reduce or eliminate entirely the culpability of the rider in most cases. That is what the evidence is saying. You say you don't believe that. Now it is my turn to ask you for your statistics and the information that substantiates your opinion and suspicions, and why you still feel that a penal system is the answer to protecting our horses. Let's have none of the misdirection you're accusing me of, now. What's your evidence? And I don't mean anecdotal. Bruce Weary =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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