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Re: [RC] buying, selling, breeding, producing - heidiHere's what I want to know. Who is breeding and selling the million dollar horses that are sold overseas? How come they are never sold here?? Because riders here won't (or can't) pay that sort of money... Riders tell me all the time how somebody sold a horse for $100,000 and yet that hasn't been what this group has said. Everybody seems to know somebody who sold a horse for tons of money, and yet I haven't read that at all on this thread. What's the deal? Some HAVE sold for that sort of money. Some of us have also been unwilling to sell to overseas buyers where we really can't check out where they will go and what might become of them. Not saying it is a wrong thing to do, or that I'd never do it--but it does give one pause. I would like to see a who's who list of horses that sold for these incredible amounts of money, where they came from, what they did, what their pedigrees are and what are they doing now. These animals must be absolutely amazing to go for the money I hear about. And if people who are breeding endurance horses want to improve, aren't these the kinds of horses to breed to? I don't know, I'm asking. Many of them have simply disappeared. A few have gone on to do well--but many of us don't like the odds. And no, some of them have not been particularly amazing--which is likely why they just disappeared into oblivion once they got there. It has been more a matter of being in the right place at the right time than any consistent thing with the horses. Most of the high-dollar sales have been to the Middle East. Again, one can't always equate quality with what someone was willing to pay--many of the top selling horses in this country in the "heyday" of the late 70s and early 80s were horses that just made me shake my head in wonder, as I would not have cared to have ridden them out of the barn. If one person sold one horse for say, $50,000 or more, does that really cover the costs of all the other horses they bred, trained and campaigned that sold for $1500-2500? Or whatever? Is it a once in a lifetime sell, or is there some breeders who consistently sell very high dollar mounts? Is there money in breeding for endurance or not? Across the industry (not speaking about endurance here) most of these high-dollar sales are like the tip of a pyramid, in which the breeders also have a "base" of cheap horses that are sold for killer prices or given away. Their averages are sometimes not all that spiffy, when one really looks at all those $500 colts that go along with it. With the endurance market, there is a much more consistent market, in my experience--while none of them sell for what they likely should, one doesn't have to just give decent ones away, either. And that market has stayed fairly consistent throughout the "crash" of the "industry." Good riding horses have always sold, even if not for what they should. As for there being money in breeding for endurance--no, I don't think a person would make a living at it, but yes, a person can at least recoup enough of one's expenses to make it an affordable thing to do. That said, I will reiterate what I've said in previous posts--breeding "programs" should be about the long-term production of horses that are sound, sane riding horses, and as such, it is a bit of a misnomer to state that many of us "breed for endurance" even though that is what our horses do best and where most of our market is. That is where I differentiate between "breeders" and "producers"--it is a bit of a semantic thing, but there IS a different concept between the two. The latter's goal is the immediate next generation, and as such, there are even different breeding strategies that might be utilized, with crossing different lines, etc. But if one's goal is the long-term health of a breeding program, one also has to consider with EVERY mating the possible implications three and four and more generations down the road. One has to be first and foremost producing the breeding stock with the QUALITIES to perform, so that one can still be "producing" riding stock ten and twenty years from now. To that end, one often does ride one's breeding stock, and one also "overbreeds" (not to be confused with "overbreeding" in the overpopulation sense) so that there are those to remain in the program and those to be marketed in riding horses. This is the sort of philosophy to which I was alluding in the post previous to this which was so misconstrued by one specific party. The "producer" who is aiming each mating at marketing a foal has an entirely different approach to breeding than the long-term "breeder" who is first concerned with keeping the quality of the overall program intact for many generations down the line, but is also a "producer" in the sense that once the choices for breeding stock have been made, the remaining horses need to be of a quality that represents the program well under saddle (in this case, endurance, for the most part). I personally could never be a breeder to sell. I think I could do a good job of producing fine horses, but I could never let them go. However, if there was a way to make all the money I keep hearing about, I might give it a go. I think the horse is always worth more to the seller than to the buyer. Naturally. It IS hard to let them go. Which is one reason why I am sometimes a bit chary of selling overseas. One of the rewards to the breeder is watching one's "kids" out there with a whole host of different riders, going down the trail, chalking up the mileage, earning placements and year-end awards, etc. Although it doesn't make us a living, they do pay us back enough to keep doing it, and that feeling of having CREATED that 10,000 mile horse, or that horse that earned a fastest time on a multiday, or that horse that Top Tenned at Tevis, or whatever, is right up there on par with spending thousands of dollars to get to the point of completing a 100-mile ride for a T-shirt, but having the satisfaction of having DONE IT! And the riding doesn't pay the bills at all, whereas the breeding at least has a reasonable payback. I would also like to add that a pre-purchase is not meant to tell you what your horse can or can't do. It is meant to point out to the prospective owner conformation flaws and potential problems like heart murmurs. The buyer can then make a more educated decision about buying the horse. It is possible that a vet not familiar with endurance would look at a little tiny Arab and tell someone there is no way that pony can ride in mountains and do 100 mile rides. Who's to say? But a competent vet can tell you that for his size he does have nice feet, strong cannon bones, a deep girth and that the heart and lungs sound great! And that is what you, the buyer wanted to hear! The pre-purchase exam is not meant to be an elimination process, but rather an educational one. Well stated! My blacksmith says we (Americans) produce the best Arabs in the world. Your blacksmith is right--which is why it continually amazes me that the breeders of so many of the "high profile" horses seem to think that they have to import horses from somewhere else to top-cross to all our good mares. I learned my lesson back in the 70s going around to the show barns, and coming to the realization that the only ones I'd care to take home and ride were the good old "American" broodmares out in the pasture... <sigh> The only other country that comes close is Australia, IMO--and they are now starting down the same primrose path that American breeders did 20+ years ago. Meanwhile, their "old colonial" sorts of horses (very much like the various "preservation" groups here) have been cleaning up all over the world in endurance--in fact, I'd wager that the UAE is now buying more horses there than here, simply because they can FIND more of those sorts of horses for sale there now--or at least, one doesn't have to sort through as many horses to find them.... Heidi =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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