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RE: [RC] A horse worth having - Mike Sherrell - Kitley, Carrie E Civ USAF AFSPC 30 MDSS/SGSLFIn the years I spent working at a Wild Horse Sanctuary, I never witnessed a single mare 'mercilessly disciplining' her foals. And my humble opinion is that human discipline and equine discipline are actually quite similar if you watch closely (when executed properly by the humans). At any rate, there are many humans who could benefit by watching animals with their young. <G> You keep referring to what works with getting humans to do what you want as if it were a model for getting horses to do what you want. One of the most notable differences between handling horses and handling humans is the role of physical punishment. If humans disciplined their children as mercilessly as horses do their youngsters, the world would be populated by criminals and sociopaths. Regards, Mike Sherrell Grizzly Analytical (USA) www.grizzlyanalytical.com 707 887 2919; fax = 707 887 9834 -----Original Message----- From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of k s swigart Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:49 AM To: Ridecamp Subject: [RC] A horse worth having Mike Sherrell said: If you think that horses are controlled by love and not force, you've never watched a herd of mares. Like I said, it is probably a gender difference. To me, the idea of getting cooperation from a horse by physically overpowering it is as silly as the idea of getting cooperation from a man by the same means. I find it funny that he thinks it necessary. I am currently working with a 4 y.o. BLM mustang (so nobody put a halter on him as a yearling and overpowered him). And I can now lead him with the lead rope draped over my shoulder (or actually, with nothing at all, since he will follow me around like a dog). However, this doesn't mean that he thinks he cannot jerk me off my feet if he wants to, or trample me if he wants to. He just knows (at least he does now, he didn't a few months ago when I first got him) that I don't like that very much, and he is motivated to please me. I did not even TRY to engaged in a contest of strength with him, if I did, he would simply overpower me. I have never tried to overpower him and don't expect that I or anybody else ever will. If you think you are able to overpower your horses, it is only because your horses aren't trying very hard. That mare that I posted about was, in many ways, an exceptional horse, in that she knew exactly how strong she was and she knew exactly how to use that strength...even when sedated (I didn't start working with her until she was a 1300 lb 4 y.o either). And you could stand 90 degrees to her head and try to yank on the lead rope and she would simply jerk you off your feet; she would do this by giving you just a little bit of slack, maybe a 1/4 of an inch, and then using only her neck muscles flip her head to the side and bodily lift you off the ground, and the instant your feet are even slightly off the ground she could drag you wherever she wanted, unless you let go, which she could do until you did. People who did not respect her strength and tried to overpower her were quickly shown just how foolhardy that was. One guy had the flesh ripped off his fingers to the bone by trying to hold on to her (yes, he was wearing gloves, the rope ripped through the gloves too). And the first thing she would do with anybody new who wanted to do anything with her was tell them: "You do realize that I don't HAVE to comply don't you?" And if they didn't say yes, she would show them. If they did say "yes, I know, but please do it anyway." Mostly she would say, "Okay." I could ride her over hill and dale, jump her over large obstacles, lead her, tie her as long as I didn't tie her fast (if I tied her fast she would just break whatever she was tied with or tied to). The only thing I never did figure out was that trailering thing. I might have been able to if I were really important to me, but it wasn't that important. And lest you think that this is just a big horse thing, I have another small horse (only 600 lbs) who came to me after having been engaged in a battle of strength (with a guy with a rope mind you, who knocked her to the ground with it, but still that did not engender compliance) that both of them lost (they ended up on the ground together), after having been declared "too stupid to learn" because she was no more compliant (in fact less so) after she had been thrown to the ground. Even now, 12 years later, if she even sees this guy, she immediately becomes resistant, and if anybody she doesn't know starts to take the attitude with her that they might try to overpower her she becomes totally non-compliant. I, however, have ridden her thousands of miles, used her as a kids riding pony, taught her to pull a cart and taken her half-way across the country with me. I didn't do this by engaging in a battle of strength with her, in fact, it took me over a year to finally convince her, "No, I am not going to try to over power you." And I have to tell people, "Please do not try to over power her, it freaks her out and she becomes dangerous to be around." Simply because she can think of nothing other than, "I have to get away." Many people who engage in battles of strength with horses that are sufficiently determined to actually use all their strength to resist, will then declare this horse to be "no good" and get rid of it. Not me, the ones with that kind of strength and determination are the ones that I consider the most worth having. It is the ones without it that are "no good." I have absolutely no idea what type of horse handler Mike is or what methods he may use in order to gain compliance from those that you work with, I just wanted to point out that you are wrong in your assertion that somewhere along the line somebody has to have engaged in a battle of strength with the horse and have won. After all, men often comply with the wishes of women without ever having engaged in a battle of strength with them, and I doubt it is because men are too stupid to figure out that most of them could overpower a woman if they tried. And, incidentally, it is not being 90 degrees to the horse that allows you to "over power" a horse, but rather the fact that you can surprise the horse. After all, the horse is 90 degrees to you as well, and can pull to the side the same way you can, and outweighs you...or simply come to the side when you pull...and be on top of you. You can't push on a rope, so in this situation there is NOTHING you can do to keep the horse from trampling you. Fortunately, for you, most of horses don't think along these lines, so when you go to pull sideways on the rope, the horses you have dealt with have not pulled sideways themselves and overpowered you or come sideways more quickly than you were prepared for and crushed you. But they can, and I had one that would, at the first sign of resistance from you. The groom of the great racehorse Kelso (five time Horse of the Year) once put it perfectly. He said, "He was the kind of horse that if you wanted to go right and he wanted to go left, you go left." As I said, the horses that will not let you overpower them are the great ones. And, as far as I am concerned, the only ones worth owning. kat Orange County, Calif. :) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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