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Re: [RC] Civilized (was: You should) - sandydsaSorry but anyone who knows Sal knows that he does not need behavior mod. It was a freaky, instant of about 3 seconds of CHOMP and OUCH. He is not a kicker - never was and fortunately in SPITE of this idiot who HAD A BITER, is not a kicker now. And NO I DON'T excuse it but I do understand it and if someone bit ME in the butt and I got smacked for defending myself, I might defend myself against THEM too. I imagine it hurt to get bitten - hammered - in the butt. Anyone with a bright idea how to "teach" a non-kicker NOT to kick when bitten in the behind without being unreasonably unfair now is a great time to jump in. And if you think that smacking my guy in that case would be appropriate, sorry, but I won't smack him for that. Frankly as quickly as it happened, and in the seconds it took to yank Sal away from this marauder, my two thoughts were to diffuse a dangerous situation by MOVING AWAY and also to keep my horse from being bitten again. In 22 YEARS that was the only time Sal ever lifted a hoof or tooth to ANYONE and that is a pretty good record. So now anything to say about people who have horses of ANY gender who are allowed to get so close to another horse to cause a situation like that? I take our management of a stallion VERY seriously, and at the same time I expect others to do the same. Strange, but even as the P & R gal who was grazed looked up to yell at me then saw Mr Teeth Pinning and rearing for another strike as I was yanking my horse away - and others saw it as well - this horse and rider were not DQed on the spot! They should have been. Avoiding a dangerous situation goes both ways - I do my part.I won't allow my horse to get attaked that's for sure - as John WAyne said "I don't do these things to others and I expect the same of them".if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space
-----Original Message----- From: k s swigart <katswig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: Ridecamp <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 9:26 pm Subject: [RC] Civilized (was: You should) Diana Peterson said: > Are we still talking about horses ? civilized ? Yes, I was talking about horses, but I was also talking about "civlized" in general. The definition of "civilized" is the ability to get along in a group situation. The requirement for being "civilized" is the ability to overcome "natural" tendencies of anti-social behaviour, whether talking about horses or people. While it is perfectly "natural" for horses to kick at each other in retaliation for slights from other horses, or in defense against predators, this is NOT suitable behaviour for horses that are brought out in the company of strange horses and people. In order for any individual to be considered "civilized" (and therefore suitable company in transient social situations, which any endurance ride is) it has to have LEARNED to resist its natural inclinations. And this is true of both horses a humans. It may be difficult for individuals to do this; this does not, however, change the requirement. Until individuals are capable of supressing their "natural" tendencies for agression and/or retaliation, they are not suitable company and ought not be foisted on the unsuspecting. And while it is true that latent instincts are frequently not very far below the surface of the "veneer" of civilization, as Truman mentioned in his post, when this veneer slips and the individual reverts to dangerous behaviour, it is perfectly appropriate to remove this individual from situations where the dangerous behaviour can cause damage. If I want to consider my horses civilized and be able to take them out in company (like to an endurance ride), you can bet that I am gonna reprimand them for kicking, no matter how provoked I thought them to be. The best way to "reprimand" a horse for unacceptable behaviour can vary from horse to horse and from situation to situation (and is not the topic of this post...just that SOME reprimand is in order). In the horse/human environment, kicking is and dangerous and uncililized behaviour, no matter how "understandable" it is. And Sandy's example of the P&R volunteer getting kicked (she called it "slightly swiped") by her horse because it was provoked by another horse biting it in the butt provides a perfect lesson for why this is the case. Personally, I don't know of any way to teach a horse "it is okay to retaliate by kicking just so long as you have good aim and only hit the cause of your provocation." Additionally, since we already KNOW that the other horse was not properly civilized (properly civilized horses don't bite either), there is no way of knowing how this horse might have reacted to being kicked had Sandy's horse had better aim...would it, then, have just lashed out with its hooves giving no thought to what innocent bystander was within its field of fire? Far better to have a horse that has been taught not to lash out with its hooves no matter how provoked. The veneer of civiliation being sometimes difficult (and more difficult in some individuals than others) to establish, I am willing to accept that horses do need to be taught this (after all, it is not their "natural" inclination), and cannot be kept out of social situations entirely until it is completely established; however, it must be acknowledged that such civilization is desirable and to strive for it by correcting uncivlized behaviour when it occurs. I confess, I have a horse that kicks (in fact, she kicked me just yesterday); however, the extent, so far, of her "endurance" experience is to ride drag (i.e. at the BACK) at an assortment of rides. This may end up being the total extent of her endurance experience ever. So I am not speaking as somebody who has nothing but perfectly behaving horses, but rather as somebody who understands the difference between perfect behaviour, and behaviour that still needs...ummmmm... some modification. A horse that kicks, no matter how provoked, needs some behaviour modification. Personally, I am far more willing to accept the fact that few horses are "perfect" and they all need a certain amount of modification if I think the horse's handler IS trying to modify the behaviour rather than trying to excuse it. If one wishes to get an entertaining understanding of how and why to "civilize" individuals away from their natural inclinations, I can recommend Judith Martin's book, _Miss Manners Guide to Rearing Perfect Children_ as she discusses just this topic (granted in respect to children rather than horses, but the underlying philosophy is the same) in the first chapter (or perhaps the preface). kat Orange County, Calif. :) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp Ride Long and Ride Safe!! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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