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Re: [RC] [RC] Palominos - Soli Sorokin

To put it more clearly, a horse that is heterozygous for the Cream
gene, AND is a chestnut will be a palomino, but only has a 50% chance
of passing that Cream gene on to the offspring. Whether or not the
offspring will be palomino does not depend on the Cream gene alone -
rather the base color of the horse as well as whether the Cream gene
is passed on. Palominos are chestnuts with the Cream gene. A horse
that is black  can carry the Cream gene without showing it (because
the Cream gene has no effect on black), and can produce palomino
offspring if he is heterozygous for black (meaning that he also
carries one copy of the chestnut gene). A bay horse that inherits the
Cream gene will be buckskin.

Since there are clear tests for the Cream gene, it is a bit silly and
misleading that the color registries allow registration for horses
that do not carry the gene that causes said color. A common thing with
the show people here in TN with the walking horses is to dye the mane
and tail lighter for a more "dramatic" effect for their chestnut
horses.  I guess lots of those chestnuts could be registered as
palomino, too. You can usually tell the difference, as a chestnut
horse with dyed mane and tail will have a more red body, whereas a
true palomino is generally gold or if smutty, will have more
brownish-gold hairs.

To further complicate things, there is an additional dilute gene that
causes a palomino-like coloration but is NOT the Cream gene. It's
called champagne, and will dilute a chestnut coat to one very similar
to palomino, but it will also dilute a black coat to something
resembling buckskin.  It's most common in TWH's but is found in QH's,
drafts, and miniatures as well. Like Cream, it is a dominant gene, but
unlike Cream, in its homozygous form there is no outward appearance
difference. Homozygous Cream horses are cremellos and perlinos, or
smokey creams. (chestnut, bay, and black base coats). Homozygous
champagne horses are the same in appearance as heterozygous. There is
no genetic test for champagne yet, but there are very clear signs to
differentiate between Cream and champagne, including eye color
(Champagnes are born with blue-green eyes that turn to hazel-amber as
it ages), skin color (champagnes are born with pink skin that will
mottle as it ages - palominos are also often born with pink skin but
it rapidly turns grey/black without mottling) and foal color
(champagnes are often born very dark, almost their natural base color,
and lighten thereafter).  Champagnes are also often a metallic glowing
color when under sunlight, which is difficult to capture on film.
Champagne on a black base coat is called "classic champagne", on a bay
it is called "amber champagne" and on chestnut is called "gold
champagne." Amber and classic are usually very difficult to tell apart
without genetic testing for the agouti gene.

Some TWH's exist that have both a champagne gene and a Cream gene, and
these are often mistaken for cremellos when they have a chestnut base
coat, as a horse with both these genes will look very much like one,
even though it is not homozygous for either. They are calling these
"ivory champagnes", the version on back or bay seems to be called
"classic ivory" - these look much like a buttermilk/silver buckskin.

This is a photo showing the light colored eyes and coloration of a
champagne. This horse is probably a classic, although he was listed as
an amber, and also carries the tobiano gene. He does not carry a Cream
gene.

http://www.vcommunities.net/Denhead.jpg

Next link is a homozygous gold champagne TWH stallion. While there is
no tests for this, he is out of two champagne parents and has sired
all champagne foals over ten years. He does not carry the Cream gene.
http://www.brownridgefarm.com/wdancer.htm

There are tons of thumbnails of champagne horses at the ICHR, which
requires extensive photographs of horses to show known characteristics
of the champagne gene for registration.

http://www.ichregistry.com/studbook_p1_0001-0050.htm

~S





On 1/7/06, Diane Trefethen <tref@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
A long time ago I read that Palominos don't breed true.  The problem is that 
there
are two genes involved in Palomino coloring, or more correctly, two Alleles 
at the
Cream locus.  A Palomino has Allele C and Allele C[Cr] where C = normal color 
and
C[Cr] = Cream color.  Each parent can only contribute one Allele.  Half the 
time a
Palomino will contribute C and half the time C[Cr].  When you breed two 
Palominos,
C-C[Cr], the statistical probabilities are C-C (25%)=normal color, C[Cr]-C[Cr]
(25%)=Cream color, and C-C[Cr] (50%)=Palomino color. For more than you want 
to know
about color genetics see:

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatcolor/coatclr3.html#fig2a

While a C-C[Cr] could be considered the only "true" Palomino, the only two 
Palomino
registries I could find in the United States will both register on just color 
as is
evidenced by BOTH accepting purebred Arabians.  As Dawn has noted, an Arabian 
cannot
have the C[Cr] Allele, aka "dilute gene", therefore, the horses both 
registries are
accepting must be chestnuts with a) body color that falls within the 
acceptable
limits for registration as a Palomino and b) flaxen manes and tails with no 
more than
15% colored hairs interspersed among the white/silver hairs.  The two 
registries are:

Palomino Horse Association
Route 1. Box 125
Nelson, MO 65347.

and

Palomino Horse Breeders of America, Inc.
15253 E. Skelly Drive
Tulsa, OK 74116-2637

As noted above, breeding a Palomino to another Palomino should result in only 
50% of
the foals being Palomino.  On the other hand, both chestnut coloring and 
flaxen
mane/tails result from recessive genes so if you breed two flaxen maned 
chestnuts,
the result, barring mutation, will always be a flaxen maned chestnut.*

*http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/recessive_color_genes.htm
  http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/palomino_or_flaxen_chestnut.htm


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Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp

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Replies
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[RC] Palominos, Diane Trefethen