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Re: [RC] Distance between vetchecks - Jim Hollandk s swigart wrote: So I will make a deal (because Jim said):I would support a mandatory vet check within the first 15 miles, even if it was a 20 minute rest...then a fly-by. Even if the vet check had to be held at 5 miles, that would be preferable to no check for 15 miles. I agree not to support a rule saying that ride managers aren't allowed to lay out a course that has people going faster coming up behind people going slower, if you don't support a rule that mandates a vet check within the first 15 miles. Hmm...the rule you mention would eliminate most of the rides in the SE! :) You can support that rule if you like....unlike a "stop" within the first 15 miles, not very practical, IMHO. I for one, would not even consider this, particularly on the first loop, particularly on an inexperience horse. On an experienced horse with many miles, maybe.There seems to be something of a collective mentality saying that we need to do something to accommodate the fact that, of course, everybody is going to gallop their horse to the first vet check (no matter how far it is) because nobody (even Mr. "one rein stop perfectly trained horses" Holland :)) has any control over the pace their horse goes before there is a mandatory hold where the vets and the pulse criteria can sort things out. This is NUTS! :) If we are to have any success in stopping people from over riding their horses at endurance rides, we don't need figure out something to accommodate this mentality. We have to CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!! this mentality. Lemme give you an example, here....I obviously did not communicate well. In MANY SE rides, the 50 milers start at say 6:00, the 25 milers start an hour later at 7:00...on the same trail. This is common, although sometimes the RM will attempt to start them on different trails. I'm an experienced rider and a decent horse trainer. Anyone around here will tell you that I have two of the best trained horses in the SE, and they are NEVER out of control. Excited maybe, but never out of control. (I should know better than to say that <grin>) I took my youngest horse, Magic to his first ride (a 50) the past spring. I chose a very "technical" ride, because I didn't want a lot of flat track to allow people to blow by me, since I planned to go slow, work on tailing under ride conditions, and run the downhills. Not at all concerned about finishing....just wanted Magic to "experience" a ride, knowing he would be a basket case for a while when all those 25 milers passed me on the first loop...and I wasn't wrong! <grin> He was not running away, but he did some "trotting in place", and REALLY wanted to go with all those horses. As soon as the first 25 milers caught up with me, I got off (this is mostly single track) moved into the woods just off the trail, and we went into "ground manners" mode until I finally got the big sigh and chewing that told me he was willing to co-operate. By the first Vet Check, about 12-15 miles, he had calmed down, and was eating and drinking. Still wanting to go, but willing to do it my way. The SOONER you can get the horse into a "controlled" area, with other horses standing around eating and drinking, the less chance you have of getting into metabolic problems. An "EXPERIENCED" horse is less likely to have a problem....but I can't rembember seeing anyone around here stopping beside the trail to feed their horse until they hit the first Vet Check....'course all our rides HAVE a Vet Check in around 15 miles. I don't know fer sure, but suspect that is why a metabolic death in the SE is almost unheard of. Now, if this horse at his first Endurance Ride had been ridden by a beginner, whose background was trail, shows, CTR, etc. and their horse was like mine, "inexperienced" with speed, do you think this person would have been able to get off, calm their horse down, give them a rest, then move on down the trail? I have seen this situation MANY times. There are LOTS of "out of control" horses out there...the rider just lets them follow the horse in front until he stops for water or hits the first vet check. If an unprepared horse is allowed to "run with the pack", he will likely be overridden in that first 15 miles...which is why we need a "stop" in the first 15 miles to let the horse...and rider...settle down and let a vet look 'em over. Again, JMHO. The only way I would "rest" in this situation is to get off and walk..but you better be sure you do it on a road where people can pass...or you just might get run over in the woods on single track. How would YOU do this? Just curious..... <grin>I have done this in a lot of different ways: The first and foremost, of course, is to try to avoid bringing a horse to a ride before I, at least, have some assurity that it is sufficiently well trained to pay attention to me anyway, and if I know it is a ride where I am constantly going to have faster horses running up behind me, I would find some other venue for that horse's first ride (which is, I contend, why I like to start horses at multi-day rides...point to point multi-day rides are the best:)). Well, we don't have many multi-days here...pretty much have to do the best we can with what we have....and I can't remember a ride in the SE where I didn't have faster horses running up behind me. However, other strategies that I have used on novice (or over eager) horses include: When I find a wide enough spot in the trail, I get off and stop, and feed the horse some of the ~5 lbs of grain that I bring along with me on virtually every ride (having, of course, already taught the horse at home to "go for the food, it's a sure thing."). I also "bring along" feed, even on training rides, but I don't know ANY horses around here that would eat it on the first loop of an Endurance Ride while the rest of the pack was going on down the trail. Maybe your horses like to eat better than mine. (One of those "differences" I was referrng to! :) Don't even start the ride until 1/2 hr to an hour after the front runners. That works, but here you have to deal with the 25 milers 1/2 an hour behind you...in fact, I have been lapped by a front running 50 miler on the first loop when I was going real slow. Bring along (or, barring that, find) another horse that is already sufficiently well trained to be ratable that is going to go along at about the same place that I think I might like to go and have somebody else ride that horse and rate it, and then my horse can stay with that horse instead of thinking that it should stay with any horse that happens to come by. That's a good solution and I use that whenever possible....but not all of us are blessed with enough horses/riders to do that. If the horse just won't allow itself to me rated under saddle, I get off and walk. And no, the DOESN'T have to be done only on roads. If I get off and walk my horse, I can walk just as fast as the horse can, so walking my horse in hand is no "slower" than walking it under saddle, and it is a total fallacy that you are only allowed to slow your horse down (even to a walk) on trail that is wide enough to allow anybody who is galloping up behind you to be able to get around you without having to slow down. If somebody comes up behind me while I am walking my horse in hand on a single track trail, they can do the same thing that they would do if they were to come up behind anybody who is going slower than they want to go. They can let me know that they are back there and would like to pass, and I will get off the trail at the first opportunity. Again, I agree...but the POINT was that an inexperienced horse (at least mine) will not be calm and relaxed enough to relax, rest, eat and drink in that environment. They are under control physically because of their training, but not emotionally. My horses are entirely different creatures after the first Vet Check...even if it's only 5 miles. Even with my green horse Magic, I can ride the second loop on a loose rein and at my speed. It's just a "saftety check"....but I believe it's worthwhile. After that, a long loop, IMO, is acceptable. [Re the Outlaw Trail] Known trail, everybody is stopped. IMHO, irrelevant. It basically IS a Vet Check with everything but the Vet. Rest, water, and calm down. This is a unique situation, not typical of most rides.Well..."respectfully disagree." For several reasons. The first time I did the Outlaw Trail, it was not a "known trail" to me. Because I had attended the pre-ride meeting, I knew that it was 45 miles to the first vet check, and I knew, at least on the map and trail guide, where the "bail out points" were (places where you could, if you felt that your horse wasn't going to make it all the way to the vet check that you could head down to the highway and flag down a passing tourist), and I knew, at least on the map and trail guide, where the "point of no return" was (the place on the trail where, after you passed it, the next opportunity for help was the vet check). And I had sort of "hooked up" with somebody else who had already done the ride (ironically because we had met at the same rest area along the highway on the way to the ride where we had both stopped for lunch) that I had already quizzed about their intended ride strategy and had arranged to kind of tag along on the trail with her because it sounded like she was planning to pace her horse about the same way I would like to pace mine. But that didn't keep me from stopping my horse in a meadow about 10 miles into the ride and getting off and letting my horse graze and eat some of the grain I had brought along with me and telling her, "You know, my horse needs to stop here, you go on ahead. Maybe I will catch up with you, maybe I won't." But you DID have prior knowledge....you knew about those areas.....by trail map and word of mouth...suppose you don't HAVE such a place to stop...? If the difference is so obvious to the most casual observer, it shouldn't be all that difficult for you to explain these big differences to me. Because, quite frankly, personally, I approach every endurance ride that I go to as being virtually no different from any other ride that I do, not at an endurance ride. For me, the only difference is that somebody else has laid out the trail (and even some of the non-endurance trail rides I go to, that can be said about). So do I....ride "that horse on that trail on that day"...but the "environment" of the ride may prevent you from treating it as "just any other ride", as posted above. All the things you describe above seem so simple to us...and I have used all of them....but it is just NOT that easy for newbies. Let's give 'em a little safety net. Jim, Sun of Dimanche+, and Mahada Magic =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net. 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