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    RE: [RC] [RC] [RC] Start - John A. Teeter

    >? Why is "start" such a difficult concept? Where do managers start
    >the trail? When do they start timing the competition?
    you covered the basics, starting time and starting place. Note that in a
    mass start endurance ride, they cannot occur concurrently, in that all
    competitors cannot cross the starting place at the starting time. (which
    btw, this distinquishes an endurance start from a dressage start?).
    the rest of this is pretty length, and you can skip it if you like, but it
    basically says that starting time and starting place ARE defined in the
    rules. So there really isn't a need for a new rule IMO. if a new rule IS
    drafted, then it should contain language that is as flexible as the
    discussion below might require:)
    So you can start the competition, the ride, at the "starting time" (for the
    purposes of calculation of competition time and ride time and the ride
    clock) and any competitor may cross the "starting place" , becoming a
    starter. Normally, riders may cross the "starting place" any time after the
    "starting time", so they can come out on the trail later. I've heard tails
    of a "30 minute" rule, in that you have to cross the starting place within
    30 minutes of the starting time, but its not in the rules:)
    So with respect to "start", you need to define starting time and starting
    place as you pointed out.
    As to the 5.4 reference to a pre-disignated finish line, there must also be
    a difinition of finishing time (found hidden in the definition of ride time
    defined in 5.3:) . In the Endurance rules, it is related to the finishing
    line, in LD it is related to when you reach finishing pulse (and
    resperation?) criteria (L5.3).
    In reading the rules, I think "starting time" is pretty well defined in the
    context within which it used. To calculate competition time and the start of
    ride time. The rules pretty clearly imply that all competitors in the ride
    use the same starting time and ride on the same ride clock etc. (note: A
    staggered start format would change that assumption. In that case, the
    starting time is more closely associated with the out-time of the staggered
    group. But the rules do not preclude that definition of starting time
    The rules also use the term "start" and, in all but one case, it seems that
    the usage of "start" is that of "starting place" i used above. These occur
    primarily in the calculation of placement and bonus point calculations,
    where having crossed the starting place means you have entered the ride
    (even tho you may not have done it at the starting time!).
    So the one place where it is ambigous is 6(a), where it says you have to be
    present and accounted for at the start of the ride --- is that starting time
    or starting place or both?
    But, in the case of providing a criteria for completion, we don't care about
    starting time. we know that the starting time is the same for all
    competitors. We care that the competitor has crossed the starting place -
    becoming a starter, and thus eligible to receieve a completion.
    The only real issue left to cover would be that Rule 6 speaks of how one
    completes a ride. One must have started (and thus become a starter) and not
    have been diqualified.  but it does not say that if you are a "starter" and
    are disqualified that you must be listed as a did not finish (with
    appropriate categories).
    There is still the issue of properly reporting ride results. That should be
    treated as a seperate issue from the need to define start. An analysis
    simuliar to this would lead to the resolution (IMO) that ride reporting is
    covered (in rule 16?). but the import point is that it is a different
    situation for "define start".
    So there's a fair amount of work to draft a rules change. Drafting the
    wording of the new rule needs to happen early on because it allows the group
    to focus on the new wording and its interactions with the rest of the rules.
    So drafting a rule?? want to take a shot at it?? I think the current rules,
    with the possible exception of the problem in 6(a), have adequate
    definitions of starting place and starting time to allow for the kinds of
    competitions AERC sanctions.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Nancy Mitts [mailto:mitts_n@xxxxxxxxxxx]
    Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 9:41 AM
    To: johnt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Cc: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Subject: RE: [RC] [RC] Start
    >? Why is "start" such a difficult concept? Where do managers start
    >the trail? When do they start timing the competition?
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    RE: [RC] [RC] [RC] Start, Nancy Mitts