Training, spooky horses, NH (long)

[Lynette Helgeson <helgeson@lansford.ndak.net>]

KIMBERLY PRICE wrote:

>    ### Hey Lynette, I did not write the above.  You cut it off someone
> else's message, probably the same guy I (Kimberly) replied to.

Sorry

>   ### But while you are on it, the trailer loading method of tapping
> the horse's rear is completely seperate than the spook training by John
> Lyons.  John Lyon's flavor of NH and Pat Paretti's flavor of NH are
> entirely different and should not be generalized as being the same.
> I've used the John Lyon's methods on my morab and arabians, and the
> horses not only catch the message very quickly, but because they are
> just highly sensitive beings, respond to the fair treatment of the
> immediate release of stress as a reward.

I agree that they are different, I do not like Pat Parretti's methods for
all. They might work with stock horses but from what I have
seen of Parretti's method of loading a horse into a trailer, he would
have his hands full if he tried that on an sensitive Arab. But I too have
used John Lyons methods, (I get
his magazine, "The Perfect Horse"); Mary Twelveponies, (I have all
of her books); James Fillis who wrote, "Breaking and Riding"; I have
gained understanding of horses from authors such as Monty Roberts
and Walt Atchison who wrote, "Let there be Horses in Heaven" Walt
spent years of his life watching wild horses and recording their behaviors.

And other authors too numerous to mention. The problem with
following just one trainers methods of training is - "not ever method
is going to work for every horse". So the more that you learn from
every source, the better horse person that you will be. Just try the
methods that make sense to you. Don't do something that does not
feel right to you, no matter how great that method is.

> >I have trained many different breeds of horses and it took me awhile
> >to realize that when you train an Arabian you are working with a
> >totally different animal. And this is a prime example of that. The
> >very best way to train an Arabian to not be spooky is for you to
> >gain his trust. If he trusts that you will not let any horse eating
> >monsters get him and he will go anywhere for you.

Let me elaborate on this. I am a pet groomer and I got into discussion one
time with a fellow colleague on, who is smarter, the
dog or the horse. She raises QH and I raise Arabian. She sees the
dog as being smarter and I see the horse as being just as smart and
loyal as the dog. Then it dawned on me. The dog is smarter in the
ways of a human because they live with them. The bond that the
dog has with man is because of the fact that the dog has gotten to
know humans so well because of being able to watch them and live
with them. The dog's loyalty stems from that also. O.K., so which
breed of horse has been in the same position as the dog? You guessed
it, the Arabian. Don't you think that that is why those of us who have
experienced the Arabian find them different then any other breed
of horse? They seem to understand humans better and seem to
enjoy finding ways to out think the human race. All horses will do
that, but an Arabian will go beyond just trying, they will make a
career out of it. And they love it. But if you treat the Arabian like
the fine, proud, intelligent, fun loving animal that they are and
you keep on top of all of their tricks but out thinking them, they
will be the most loyal and delightful animal that exists.

>    ###This is entirely true and NH is just one way of showing a horse
> he can trust you but on the ground first and with minimum interferance
> from dangerous stimuli.  The goal is no one gets hurt and the horse is
> calmer when he leaves than when he started.  I highly suggest you see
> some tapes or attend a seminar, or observe a JL trainer in full before
> condemning this flavor of Natural Horsemanship.

I have seen tapes, read books, got magazine, downloaded articles from the
internet, been on the e-mail list for Natural Horsemanship.
I am always looking for ways to learn, but then I get on my
Arabians, and they teach me more then any book, etc.  And I
agree that the best way for any situation to be handled is for
you to stay calm and teach the horse trust. How do you teach a
horse trust? Simple, put yourself in your horses place and look
at what you are doing to your horse, do you feel comfortable with
what the rider is doing? Is the rider making you feel comfortable?
Are you gaining trust in the rider? Or is what the rider doing confusing
you, making you uncomfortable, not sure you can trust the rider. Is
the rider getting tense, yelling, angry? Any time that I am working
with an horse and I feel myself getting tense, angry, frustrated, I will
stop what I am doing, give my horse and myself some time to settle
down and I will give both myself and my horse time to think about
what we are doing to each other and what I am trying to get across
to the horse, how I am doing it and how I could be doing it better.
Don't keep using a method because it is John Lyon's or so and so's
method, if it does not work, it does not work! Find something else,
and keep calmly trying different methods (maybe even your own)
till you find what works. Some times this has gotten us
lost on the trail, and far behind the group, but my horse is always
a better horse for it.


>   >For example, your Arabian is coming up to something that scares
> >him, his instinct tells him to run. You hold him to face it and start
> >tapping him, he is trained to move away from pressure so he moves
> >forward, still scared but feeling trapped, like he has no choice. He
> is>not learning to trust you, you are forcing him towards it, so he is
> >mistrusting you. You are forcing him into a situation that he does
> >not like. So next time instead of giving you a chance to tap him
> >towards something that scares him he is just going to wheel and run.
>
>   ### You are right and this method should not be done as the sole
> training or stimuli to move pass a scarey object.  I have used it when
> Mystery was being just plain stubborn but that is different than being
> scared.  That is why I say once again trailer loading method, which
> uses this tapping as an encouragement, is entirely different than the
> "learn to spook in place, face the object, and trust my cues" lessons
> taught first in the roundpen and practiced on the trails....  Please do
> not confuse or misinterpret these two very different yet connected
> lessons....

Yes, Yes, Yes, I agree with you, but I do not think that I was the one that
was confusing them.  What I use
for training a horse that is scared of a object, and I mean
really scared, is I will let the horse back off from the object
to where he is comfortable, I guess some call it the comfort
zone. Then I do what ever if takes to get that horse to be
not afraid. I will ask, not force, the horse to take one step forward
if he does, I praise him. The whole time I am relaxed and let
him know that this is no big deal. If he chooses to back off and
go back to his comfort zone, I let him, then we start all over, but
I do not give up until he has made it to the object and is relaxed
about it. That is the mistake some make, they get the horse
up to the object and then they let the horse turn and hurry away.
They think the idea is to just get the horse to go up to the object and
then they can both leave, but if the horse is still leary of the object
he has not learned any thing.
Don't leave the object until the horse is relaxed about it. Then
he believes you when you say, "it is not going to hurt you." But
if you let him leave before HE is relaxed then you have not installed
that idea in him mind and he still has doubts about the object.
If the horse plants all four feet and refuses to move, then I get
off of the horse and led him to it. I have gotten my custom made
boots wet many times from showing horses that, the water hole did
not swallow me up and it will not swallow you. But never, never do
I use any kind of pain or discomfort to get a horse closer to an
object that they are scared of. But you have to be sure that the horse
is scared first. If the horse is just playing games and is using spooking
to liven up a boring ride, then I will use cues to get the horse to
ride past the scary object, but I never hit a horse or use pain even
if they are just playing games. Everything is handled in a matter of
fact way. "There is nothing scary here, and there will be no games today.
If you are bored lets do some work then."  But you need to know
and understand your horse.

The most scariest thing in our yard is our burn barrels. THis
is where we burn our garbage. And they are also proof that
desensitizing does not work. I can do the above methods 30 days
in a row and still have a horse spooking at these barrels. Because
they always look and smell different each day. So they have to learn
to trust me.

>     Many times they teach me before I can teach
> them...

That is so true, my best teachers have always been my horses. Any one who
is going to ride should always
spend some time sitting in the pasture watching their
horses related to each other. Esp. the one they are
going to ride. How  he relates to others has a lot to do
with how he will relate to you.

>  If something is not working, don't keep>doing it because it worked for
> someone else. Put yourself in your>horse's place and see it through his
> eyes.
>
>   ###Both sentences are true and one of the things I like about NH is
> they try and teach you to understand the perceptions you are
> erroneously giving the animals.  You "think" the animal is on the same
> wavelength as you, but if you put yourself in his mind looking at what
> you are doing toward it, you can see you are often way off track.  Make
> sense?   It trains the trainer, along with the horse.

YES, it makes sense. The mistake that some riders make is thinking that
horse think and relate the same as we do.
How many times do you see someone hitting their horse
and saying, "you KNOW better then to do that!" If the
horse knew better then he probably would not have done it.
No horse or dog for that matter, wants to be hit.

>   ### I for one am always interested in training beliefs and methods.
> The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.  But please, before
> you condemn someone else's beliefs, know for certain what you are
> condemning.  There are many NH trainers I don't believe in, but also
> many more I wouldn't think of judging unless I knew their lessons and
> philosophy in whole.

Yes, I am always learning too. That is why I love this list, I learn a lot
from everyone on here. I am always reading but I do not post
much. Probably because I always get too long. And I am not condemning
any one belief's, I have learned a lot from many trainers and just
plain horse people. I am just saying that you have to do what is
right for you and your horse and not necessarily what some one
else tell you. Learn from others but do what feels right to you, do
what makes sense to you.

>     ### You are completely right that anyway you can earn the trust of a
> good horse will work to help calm that flight instinct, and I think
> that is what all of us strive to do.

Yes, I think that we are on the same wavelength.

Lynette
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