Re: Pony prices and training..tap,tap,tap..hold on here...

[PLOUGH1@ix.netcom.com (KIMBERLY PRICE)]

Lynette Helgeson wrote: 
>
>KIMBERLY PRICE wrote:
>
>> You wrote:
>> I borrowed from John Lyons' trailer loadingmethods to get him to go 
by>> cows. When he stops, I tap him gently with thedressage whip--tap, 
tap,>> tap--until he moves just one foot. Then I stop. Thentap, tap, 
tap>> again, until he takes another step. As long as he takes a step
>> forward, he gets rewarded by having the tapping stop. Seems to work.
>>>> The worst he does is a 180 degree spin in a millisecond. Once, up 
in>> the mountains, he got me off when he saw some deer. Another time, 
I was>> hangingoff the edge and simply willed myself back into the 
saddle.
    
   ### Hey Lynette, I did not write the above.  You cut it off someone 
else's message, probably the same guy I (Kimberly) replied to.
>
>I would guess that the reason he is doing the 180 degree spin is 
tokeep you>from tap, tap, tapping. That is the problem with John Lyons
>and Pat Paretti, etc. methods. They work wonderfully on stock horses
>but not always on Arabians.

  ### But while you are on it, the trailer loading method of tapping 
the horse's rear is completely seperate than the spook training by John 
Lyons.  John Lyon's flavor of NH and Pat Paretti's flavor of NH are 
entirely different and should not be generalized as being the same.  
I've used the John Lyon's methods on my morab and arabians, and the 
horses not only catch the message very quickly, but because they are 
just highly sensitive beings, respond to the fair treatment of the 
immediate release of stress as a reward.

>
>I have trained many different breeds of horses and it took me awhile
>to realize that when you train an Arabian you are working with a
>totally different animal. And this is a prime example of that. The
>very best way to train an Arabian to not be spooky is for you to
>gain his trust. If he trusts that you will not let any horse eating
>monsters get him and he will go anywhere for you.

   ###This is entirely true and NH is just one way of showing a horse 
he can trust you but on the ground first and with minimum interferance 
from dangerous stimuli.  The goal is no one gets hurt and the horse is 
calmer when he leaves than when he started.  I highly suggest you see 
some tapes or attend a seminar, or observe a JL trainer in full before 
condemning this flavor of Natural Horsemanship.

>In fact the Arabian is such a loyal horse that if he trust you he will
>go where even the calmest horse will fear to tread.

  ### Arabs have superior brains (uh oh, here come the flame throwers) 
or perhaps it is an evolution of the QH to put up with more crap since 
they had to live with the old rough handed cowboy mentality to breed 
and survive for many generations....  &&&oh nooo, stop, stop!! I'm just 
kidding people! <g>   (I love all horses for themselves...)

>
>For example, your Arabian is coming up to something that scares
>him, his instinct tells him to run. You hold him to face it and start
>tapping him, he is trained to move away from pressure so he moves
>forward, still scared but feeling trapped, like he has no choice. He 
is>not learning to trust you, you are forcing him towards it, so he is
>mistrusting you. You are forcing him into a situation that he does
>not like. So next time instead of giving you a chance to tap him
>towards something that scares him he is just going to wheel and run.

  ### You are right and this method should not be done as the sole 
training or stimuli to move pass a scarey object.  I have used it when 
Mystery was being just plain stubborn but that is different than being 
scared.  That is why I say once again trailer loading method, which 
uses this tapping as an encouragement, is entirely different than the 
"learn to spook in place, face the object, and trust my cues" lessons 
taught first in the roundpen and practiced on the trails....  Please do 
not confuse or misinterpret these two very different yet connected 
lessons....

>Now stock horses are not always that quick thinking and they will
>not always look for another way out of something, but an Arabian
>always will look for another way.

 ###I know you are only generalizing, but couldn't help to chuckle that 
I was on a well trained QH last March 1st that turned on a dime to 
escape a frightening situation, throwing me on the side of a hill 
wrong, breaking my arm and tearing my entire rotary cuff.  Yet Mystery, 
my morab thank you the John Lyon's method, has never spun on me since 
we took those lessons.  Yes, he will spook, but spook in place facing 
the object, giving me that extra 1/2 second to react and hey, I can 
stay on a horse spooking like that...

 When training an Arabian you always have>to be>out thinking the horse.

   ###Ya know, I fine that is true for every animal.  Some just catch 
on faster than others.  Many times they teach me before I can teach 
them...

 If something is not working, don't keep>doing it because it worked for 
someone else. Put yourself in your>horse's place and see it through his 
eyes.

  ###Both sentences are true and one of the things I like about NH is 
they try and teach you to understand the perceptions you are 
erroneously giving the animals.  You "think" the animal is on the same 
wavelength as you, but if you put yourself in his mind looking at what 
you are doing toward it, you can see you are often way off track.  Make 
sense?   It trains the trainer, along with the horse.

>
>If anyone is interested in more details on the ways that I use to gain
>an Arabians trust. E-mail me.

  ### I for one am always interested in training beliefs and methods.  
The more I learn the more I realize I don't know.  But please, before 
you condemn someone else's beliefs, know for certain what you are 
condemning.  There are many NH trainers I don't believe in, but also 
many more I wouldn't think of judging unless I knew their lessons and 
philosophy in whole.

  ### I can't tell if you sent this to the list but I'm gonna copy it 
in case you did.  I don't want anyone thinking I wrote words I didn't 
write and I think this could open up some friendly discussion.  Yes, I 
know there is a NH site out there, but those people are too high up on 
a pedastool for me (and now I'm generalizing).  But be careful who you 
cut and paste....

  ### You are completely right that anyway you can earn the trust of a 
good horse will work to help calm that flight instinct, and I think 
that is what all of us strive to do.

Happy & safe riding to you,
Kimberly (&Mystery the Morab..."yeah, I can spook in place..and jump 
real high too!!hee,hee,hee!)
>
>Lynette Helgeson
>
>>
>fn:             Lynette Helgeson
>n:              Helgeson;Lynette
>org:            Diamond-H Ranch
>email;internet: helgeson@lansford.ndak.net
>title:          Home of Dakota Ponies
>note:           Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it 
does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not 
self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps not record of wrongs. 
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always 
protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never 
fails.