Re: Pony prices and training (long)

[Trishmare <Trishmare@aol.com>]

In a message dated 98-01-10 20:33:19 EST, you write:

<< I have to be a buttinski here again. In Kansas, we have much the same
 situation you described -- gravel roads, a county that used to be farms,
 but is now filled with homes and 3 acre lots, so there are kids, dogs,
 cars, 4-wheel ATVs, dirt bikes, spinning lawn ornaments, etc.>>

Dear Chris, I do not consider anyone sending me training advice to be "a
buttinski!"
 
 <<We also have lots of bridges that have very scary concrete end walls (those
 things eat horses, you know).>>

Yea, we've got those too.  I can gallop Tash over these bridges.  David is
sure those walls are out to get him! LOL!
 
 <<I have found that the John Lyons methods DO WORK if you udnerstand them and
 get the basics down first.
 
 The first principle - you don't get hurt and the horse doesn't get hurt.
 
 The second - the horse is calmer after the lesson than before.
 
 The third - work aorund the horse's comfort zone. Once I learned this,
 teaching star to deal with all the monsters out there was easier.>>

I agree with these principles and do try to remember them when I am out riding
(though sometimes it is hard, if you know what I mean--) but I always try, and
succeed more often than not. 

 <<Star had to learn that it is ok to spook, but we spook in place.>>

I have had no luck with JLyons "spook in place" training, at least as
described in his book and magazines.  We spent most of last summer working on
this and others.

 <<And I had
 to learn the comfort zone rule. When you approach something scary - let the
 horse tell you where his comfort zone is. When he gets to where he stops or
 wants to turn around or bolt, STOP. Stand there looking at the scary thing.
 It may take 5 minutes, it may take 20 minutes. when he is ready to deal
 with it, he will put his head down and start to step forward. If he takes 1
 step forward, that is cause for praise. At this point you can gently urge
 him on past the scary thing. It works great at creek and stream crossings
too.>>

If this is the "spook in place" then it does work--but it is very slow going,
with David.  Dressage, getting David "between my hands and my legs" seems to
work much better, and David and I have improved much faster using classical
French dressage than we ever did with Lyons stuff.

<<Now, 
 
 This teaches the horse that you won't ask him to do anything that will get
 him hurt. It teaches him confidence in your judgement.>>

I think that David is sure I am a moron.  He has very little confidence in my
judgement yet!  But as he is much better now, than he was last spring, that
is, when I say "cross the stream" now he will say, "hmmm, well, maybe, I'm not
gonna like it, I think I might jump it rather than cross, but, oh, ok, well go
to the other side, if you want to, but I think you are wrong in wanting
too--"---whereas last spring David would say, "Whoa!!! No WAY am I gonna cross
that thing!  I'm outa here!  Bye!"
 
 <<On a smaller scale, work onthis at home. Use cavaletti poles to teach the
 horse to go over stuff. put hay bales around the yard and weave him in and
 out of them.>>

I have been doing this.  It helps.  The odd thing is, in the backyard at home,
or in the paddock, I can get David to walk over sheets of plastic, hollow
sounding sheets of plywood, in and out of tires--no problem. He does this with
ears pricked, and at attention, but calmly and without fuss. Then I take him
out on the road or trails, and he freaks because there is a bundle of branches
by the side of the road, or an oilstain on the gravel!!!  Go figure.
 
<< I know what you mean. My old boy Cisco is like your Tash. I can leave him
 unridden for months or even a year and get on his back and it is like he
 was ridden yesterday. It is very comfortable but it also allowed me to
 become a lazy rider. Star definitely woke me up and made me call on some
 rusty skills.>>

Exactly!!! I empathize!


 <<But I am a much better rider a year later adn he is a much
 better horse.>>

I am definately and swiftly becoming a better rider.  David is very slowly
becoming a better horse.  So who is the better teacher here?<g>

 
 
 <<One of the best Lyons' things I've done with Star is the "giving to the
 bit" exercises. I do these when it is to yuicchhy to go for a long ride, or
 when I'm on call (reporters have pager duty sometimes and have to be close
 to a car and camera). We workon these exercises at home, and sometimes I
 throw them in on a trail ride. They have taught him to be responsive to my
 commands and have taught me to be precise in my messages on the reins.>>

Giving to the bit excercises did not do much for either David or I.  He always
was very responsive to bit pressure, and picked up on what this lesson was
about right away--and promptly became so bored with it (and me) he began doing
all kinds of "interesting" things to make the lesson more entertaining.  These
lessons also bored me to tears.  My dressage instructor doesnt think much of
them either.  She says that while stock type horses seem to do well with this
excercise, arabs do much better being actively ridden with the seat and legs,
which JLyons seems to neglect.  She says Lyons excercises bring the bit to the
horse, rather than the other way around (ask the horse to come to the bit).
All I can say is that once I started riding David using my seat and legs much
more actively, and keeping "soft tension" on the reins, rather than Lyons "no
tension"--David's behavior immediatly took a turn for the better, as did my
confidence.  David himself even seemed relieved--it was like he had been
waiting for me to actively ask him to do things.  I am not saying Lyons method
is bad, I'm sure it is the way to go for many horses.  It doesnt seem to have
been for David.
 
<< I'll get off my soapbox now. You are very right in that it is a LOT of work
 to train a horse. I wouldn't have taken on a 3 year old. Star is 10, but
 was left alone and unridden for at least a year. At least he had a good
 foundation. we just had to find it.>>

When things are "clicking" it is the most wonderful feeling in the world!!!
Problem is, much of the time I just want to go ride an already trained
horse!--Next time, I think I let someone else do all this work!  (my husband
just walked by the computer, and chuckled, "yea, right . . . next time you're
probably gonna want to start with a foal!"<g>)
 
 <<It is hard to relax when you are unsure of your horse and that communicates
 from you back to the horse. When you feel yourself tensing up, TAKE A DEEP
 BREATH, sing, whistle, laugh, talk to the horse, anything that makes you
 breathe!>>  

Chris, I have tried this, and I think my singing is what is making David buck!
<g>
Seriously though, you are right, and I do often have to remind myself to just
sit back and RELAX--three deep slow breathes help!  When we read it in books
or watch the proffessionals do it, it all looks so EASY!  But out on the road,
with a horse under you that you KNOW is thinking seriously of bolting because
he just doesn't like the look of that mean old garbage truck up ahead--it
ain't as easy as it looks!  
 
<< GOOD LUCK. >>

Thanks, and thanks for the advice!  When David and I blow by you at the finish
of the Tevis some day you are going to regret sending it!<VBG>!

Trish & "pretty David"