Answer to Duncans post about probiotics, flexxion products etc

[California Horse Adventures <wendyl@jps.net>]

OK, it's Sunday, too snowy to ride and I can sit down and spend the time to
answer this post. I didn't go into 5 pages of details before since that 
WOULD seem like a commercial post, but now it seems to be called for as I
am, in effect, being called a lying salesman.
   Just to set the record straight, I am first and foremost an endurance 
rider trying to find the best products available for my horse. When I went
to work for Winnie's Cookies last year it was because I thought it was a 
revolutionary, outstanding product. There is not much money to be made; the
cost of producing these supplements means that the salespeople can't be 
paid a lot of commission or the product would cost too much. In fact, I 
donated 4 times what I made at Winnie's last year to Pacific South.
That's all I'm going to say about that.
  Here's the answers to your questions:
me:
>>Duncan, I'm curious as to why you took it upon yourself to write about
>>a product and company you know nothing about in such a sarcastic
>>and vitrolic tone. Care to comment?
>
>you :It was a blatant commercial post devoid of sufficient information to
make a
>truly informed opinion of the product and full of hype. I don't know of any
>product (particularly food supplements) that 'works wonders' 100% of the
>time. That sort of post tends to bring out the worst in me.

> MY ANSWER:  First of all, "blatant commercial post" is an opinion.
Second, my exact words were: "every person that has bought them reported back
to me that they work wonders." So please take your sarcasm to them.
The only time I used the words 100 % was to say that the cookies are made
from 100% certified organic human grade ingredients. That is true and
verifiable.   
>
>ME:>  - Do you really think there is no difference betwween human grade and
>>animal grade foods?  Would you rather eat chicken approved for human
>>consumption or the chicken approved for use in dog food?
>
>YOU: I asked the question? You didn't answer. And I don't generally feed my
>horses chickens. In other words, for plant based products, what specific
>differences are there between products destined for animal consumption and
>those for human consumption? It was a honest question.
>
>ME  CERTIFIED ORGANIC means that the ingredients used in Winnie's Cookies
>>are certified free from any chemicals and are grown without chemical
>>pesticides, fertilizers and chemical weed control. Those ingredients are
>>extremely expensive, and yes, definitely make a difference.
>
>YOU: I am aware of the differences (both cost and otherwise), but you missed my
>point. If the bulk of the diet is not organic, how much additional chemical
>residue is the horse going to ingest from the small amount of supplement?
>
 MY ANSWER:  The preservatives used in horse supplements and bagged feeds
are certainly significant. If it doesn't bother you then keep on feeding them.
It bothers me. SIMPLY FROM MY POINT OF VIEW: why are horses and dogs 
becoming more and more diseased and prone to tumors and cancers? Could it 
possibly be because they have gone from diets of pasture and water or hay
and water to a vast variety of feeds and supplements, sometimes 5-20 lbs a 
day, most of which contain chemicals and preservatives?
  Here is one example - go and look at your bags of horse feed. Do you see
in the list of ingredients on called ETHOXYQUIN or just E ??
This chemical is manufactured by Monsanto. Employees that handle it must wear
protective gear and respirators. It is a POISON,  RATED as a hazardous
chemical by OSHA. The Dept. of Agriculture lists it as a pesticide. Based on
body weight , the FDA allows Ethoxyquin to be used in animals foods at a rate
300 times higher than permitted as as residue in meat consumed by humans.
(we get it through animals eating forage sprayed with it)  Is this something
you want to feed your horses? Can you measure how much they are getting or
say for sure how it effects them? Maybe not. Do you want to take a chance?
 
  I prefer to feed my animals human grade, pesticide and chemical free feeds.
It is not any more expensive and I can't think of a reason not to.


ME- As to your statement: "If you have enough knowledge to evaluate what they
>>are telling you, you don't need their advice."  Tell that to your surgeon
>>next time you need an operation, or your mechanic, or airline pilot etc.
>>Most of us go to experts for a reason, not because we're too dumb to
>evaluate
>>what they tell us but because we understand no one is knowledgeable in
>>every area.
>
>YOU I don't ask the pilot for American Airlines give me his technical advice on
>which airline to fly. My experience with nutritionists that have a product
>to sell has not been good - the advice in some cases downright dangerous. As
>I stated in my original post, I don't have a clue about yours. However,
>buyer beware. There is plenty of good advice available from independent
>sources, especially ridecamp.
>
MY ANSWER:  A well informed buyer is always a delight. It would behoove anyone
to learn enough to discuss nutrition intelligently. However, I would say, 
be careful of much of the advice on ridecamp and consider the source. Nuff
said.  

ME   All your remarks on complete supplements are too many to address,
>however,
>>you are right - supplements should be tailored to each horse. That's why
>>you get the free consultation with a REAL nutritionist, not a salesman.
>
>YOU You post didn't appear to indicate that Winnies Cookies come with differing
>formulations. You did indicate they were complete. One size fits all? Or
>maybe they are not complete? Do they contain macrominerals (calcium,
>phosphorous) and if so what forage are they designed for? Are they designed
>for a selenium deficient area or a selenium toxic area?
>
MY ANSWER:  Because I am not a nutritionist I would like to refer this
question to one, otherwise this discussion alone could go on for 4 pages.
The products come with a money back guarantee and a free consultation with
a real nutritionist. I don't know how you can get better than that.

>ME  RE your statement - "dogs need a totally different diet." Really?
>>Dogs can't use vitamins, minerals and enzymes?  hmmmm
>
>YOU Yes, but necessarily in the same relative amounts as the horse. I don't
feed
>my horses dog food and I don't feed my dogs a diet of hay (even if they
>occassional munch some of the horses').
>
MY ANSWER:  Back to the "whole foods" issue that I answered in a different post.
When you feed whole foods you don't have to be as concerned as when you 
feed concentrates. IE my horses eat carrots, my dogs eat carrots. My horses
get 3 cookies a day, my dogs get half a cookie per day. My dogs also used to
eat my horses grain and mash back when I used it. They also eat grass. ?

ME>-  Why does a healthy dog need an aspirin substitute?  Not sure what you
>mean
>>here.  If you are wondering why a healthy dog needs a flexxion product that
>>promotes healthy joints, what is the question? Ever owned a German
>Shepherd?
>>Ever heard of hip dysplasia?  Preventive maintenance is a wonderful thing.
>
>YOU You stated the product contained an anti-inflammatory. Assuming you are
>talking about non-steroidal product, it then becomes a non-steroidal
>anti-imflammatory, a class of products that includes aspirin, bute, and msm
>among others. All strictly illegal for competition. If you are referring to
>GAGs, they are not anti-inflammatories. Your post indicated
>anti-inflammatory which seemed odd - perhaps msm?
>
>MY ANSWER: Winnie's K-9 contains garlic and yucca as anti-inflammatories.
>
ME  In MY opinion, the world needs less armchair critics. Why not at least
>>examine a product so you can give a well-informed opinion?
>
>YOU Perhaps if the post had more facts and less hype I would have.
>
>MY ANWER: hope this helps.
>
>ONE LAST NOTE TO PEOPLE INQUIRING ABOUT PROBIOTICS:
 The probiotics available through Winnie's are live and consists of
several strains of Lactobaccilus Acidophlus, L. Bulgaricus, and 
Streptococcus Thermophilus.  25 billion cells per gram.
   And thats all I have to say about that.

Wendy 
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