RC: Re: Stallion behavior (long)

["superpat" <superpat@gateway.net>]

Good for you, Lif. Your arguments are more in keeping with the attitude I
wish more had towards dealing with their animals who are in hardly any
position to choose their owners. I have been witness to outright abuse of
horses by so called "trainers", some with long and convincing credentials.
Some wittingly and some unwittingly, but abuse never-the-less. And not just
with stallions. Any horse who is frightened or worse, panicked, can be very
intimidating and if handled incorrectly, (or even correctly) in the right
situation, extremely dangerous. I think that this is the reason so many
professional trainers and just plain owner/riders so readily resort to
violence as a first resort. I have often wondered how some people have not
been bucked off and stomped by their horses in response to the pain they
inflict on their horses (often out of fear). I have even wished that the
poor horse would do just that. But they are more forgiving than the humans
who are the "superior" creatures. Trainers like Bill Dorance did not suggest
violence toward the horse as a training method. I am happy that training
methods such as "Clicker Training" based on operant conditioning is becoming
more accepted as a way of working with our animals. And I heartily agree
with Pat Perelli who cautions that only the very experienced horse handler
work with stallions because of their very nature and potential for
disastrous results if handled improperly. I understand the reasons some
people choose to keep a stallion rather than geld him but I also wonder if
only those with superior bloodlines to pass on should not be gelded. Is it
possible that far too many horses are kept as stallions for the wrong
reasons? i.e. the pride the owner may have in thinking that he/she has a
stallion and therefore a superior and stronger horse (or to put it bluntly,
for macho reasons). I have read here on ride camp that many do have and ride
stallions with no apparent handling problems. This surprises me because I
remember vividly the horror stories I have heard from experienced "old
cowboys" of the viciousness of the attacks that stallions are capable of. I
have heard them tell that a stallion can be extremely unpredictable. They
may be docile and just fine for years and then all of a sudden, seemingly
without provocation, can attack and maim and even kill the human who happens
to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now these may be overblown
warnings told so vividly for effect and they certainly had the effect on me
and I for one would not have a stallion for these reasons. If I had a horse
that I thought warranted keeping a stallion for breeding, I would have him
stabled and handled by someone who was knowledgeable about stallions.
Anyway, I have managed to go on longer than I had intended. I intended only
to commend you for your humane attitude and if I wanted to leave a horse
with a trainer, I would hope that I had the intelligence to seek out one
like you.
Pat Super
----- Original Message -----
From: Lif Strand <fasterhorses@gilanet.com>
To: <ridecamp@endurance.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 9:55 PM
Subject: RC: Stallion behavior


> At 02:25 PM 1/16/00 , MTo9831816@aol.com wrote:
> >I took a tip from John Lyons with my stud who is very well
behaved...wants to
> >be mouthy but knows better.... when he would try to get mouthy, he must
think
> >he is going to die... John Lyons says you can kill him for 3 seconds with
a
> >whip below the knees...I scream hollar and whip then I put the whip down
and
> >admit him back into the herd (pet him) and it has worked like a charm
>
> Hey - I'm up for a fight and here's why:
>
> Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with this approach.  Stallions
> fight by (among other approaches) trying to bite/break the legs below the
> knees (this is from my husband's personal observation of wild stallions
> fighting in Nevada).  In the wild, a horse with one leg that isn't 100%
> functional is basically a dead horse.
>
> When you whip a stallion (or any horse) below the knees (or any animal, or
> any human, anywhere), I believe you are doing these things:
> 1)  You are whipping the horse.  Sorry, I do not find any justification
> ever for whipping any animal for any number of seconds below any joint.  I
> strongly believe that if force is necessary for a person to "train" then
> that person should not be training.
> 2)  You are challenging and because you no doubt have the horse in a
> position where it cannot defend itself (haltered, unable to flee), you are
> not even remotely being fair.  A horse that is mouthing so much may well
be
> sending a message that it is uncomfortable/fearful.  Whipping as a
response
> is not the same as understanding, and is not even remotely the same as
> addressing the issue, even if you think you are fixing the problem.
> 3)  John Lyons may have said it but I am not sure everyone understands
it -
> you are sending the message that you will kill the horse, that for 3
> seconds you want the horse to believe it will die.  Above and beyond the
> shamefulness of wanting to give any living being that impression, I say
> this:  Even a mouse, when pushed too far, will fight for it's life (and I
> can tell you of more than one instance of horses, dogs, etc. turning on
> people who beat/whip them).  When you push a stallion - or any horse -
with
> such force, at what point will it flip into fight for it's life mode -
> especially since this conveniently no-evidence place for whipping (show
> trainers do it all the time because it doesn't raise welts) is a
> vulnerability point (see my opening paragraph and my next point).  And if
> that happens, how could one blame the horse, who was not the aggressor
> after all - all the horse was doing was chewing on a few things because
of...?
> 4)  This is primal stuff.  Stallions exist to defend/protect , besides to
> procreate.  When dealing with a stud, it's not like dealing with geldings,
> mares.  Don't push primal buttons by becoming a challenger.
Domestication
> is a veneer that is very thin.  Don't start something you are bound to
> loose or that will be irrepairable.  Use force as an solution to a problem
> with a stallion and you might get force as an answer - big time. Or,
> perhaps worse in the long run, your answer might be behavioral problems in
> the future that are way worse.
> 5)  By using such a major response to a problem behavior, you draw
> attention to it, you make it into a big deal.  The "pin in the hand"
> method, even the quick slap, is more than enough.  On the third hand, a
> total attention to the situation approach, which means going into *why*
the
> behavior is occuring, and dealing with that, would be the best of all
> solutions.
>
> By the way, whipping to fix problems is the kind of stuff that is banned
by
> the Geneva Convention if done by humans to humans.  It is called
> torture.  Convincing a being you are going to kill it - for even 3 seconds
> - as a way of getting compliance is simply that:  Torture.  Why is it OK
to
> do it to horses?
>
> If you rely on pain to teach, you are not  educating.  I am sorry if this
> is harsh, but it's the facts.  Forced compliance is not the same as
> voluntary.  I know that there are lots of people out there who don't see
> the difference, but I do ask you to consider that quality does count when
> relating to an animal that is supposedly going to be your partner on the
> endurance trail.  [If you want a dependable animal and your training
> methods are based on fear, and you get into a situation that is more
> fearful than the fear you have applied, then you are in a whole pile of
> trouble.  Trust is a two way street.  [Paul's comment]]
>
> I do not believe that force/pain is a kind of educational method I
> personally want to be connected with any more.  I have been there and done
> that.  I am not proud of that approach. I will never repeat it.  It is not
> necessary.
>
> Everyone does what they think is right  - and I am not saying that my
> methods are the only right way.  But I am saying that if it's OK to whip a
> horse for one reason, then why wouldn't it be OK to apply pain to any
> creature to get it to do what you want?
>
> Call me an ass, call me a weenie for not believeing in using pain as an
> educational method for any being, but don't call me anything other than
one
> who cares.  Lif
>
>
> ____________
> Lif & Paul Strand   STRAND ENTERPRISES   http://www.fasterhorses.com
>    Arabian Horses for Distance Riding
> Internet Research * WebArt * Fine Art
> Nutrition and alternatives for self-reliant people
> Quemado, NM  USA
>
>