Re: Horse too fast!!

[Tivers@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/18/99 1:38:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,
suendavid@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< >Nope. Simple ignorance.
 
 >Well, keep reading, Tom.  It's never too late.>

This is getting to be a long and tangled thread, but I'll try to keep things
clear as to who's talking. In the above line it's Susan suggesting that she's
read more science than I have. Could be. In 1982 I gave away my first research
library--which now-DVM Joyce Harman helped me compile while she was in vet
school--couldn't afford to move it all. Now that the upstairs of my garage is
again fulled to the brim, as well as every bookshelf in the house, I'll have
to do that again, soon. been about 30 years, Susan. You must be a fast reader.

 >You can cite all such studies as you want-->
 
 In other words, please don't confuse me with facts?>

No, just demonstrate that your readings have a little more breadth.
 
 >but I'm telling you that you will
 >get a very obvious boost in performance, throughout a ride, by
 supplementaing
 >2 oz of a glycogen loading product every two hours.
 Until you do so, you
 >remain ignorant on this particular subject. It's a very simple
 >experiment--many here have already done it. I passed the stuff out to see
 what
 >would happen--and made no definitive statements until the reports started
 >coming in. Surely there is one elite academic in this group who also
 possesses
 >a pinch of courage and an ounce of curiosity.
 
 >Well, first let's deal with the subject we were *actually* discussing, which
 was your claim that no fats are needed if sufficient carbos are available.>

That was Dr. Lewis' claim, with which I happen to agree. More specifically, a
roughly 50-50 concentrate/hay ration with the concentrate containing about 8%
of the right kinds of fat is plenty of fat.

> I did the math for you that this is not practical given the energy demands
 of the endurance horse.>  Apparently you have no answer to that, so let's
 move on to the New and Improved Subject...>

Oh, I can answer that. The endurance race is not one long race  but a series
of short ones with adequate time off between them to allow energy intake.
Thus, all you're feeding for is a series of 2 hour increments of relatively
light exercise.  


>you need to check your memory,
 Tom.  Several times in the past (including about two hours ago), I've said
 that small amounts of carbos during competition are fine, and that I discuss
 this in some detail during my nutrition lectures.  I realize it's more fun
 to rant about a pinch of this and an ounce of that, but maybe you might
 consider reading your mail as well.>

I've acknowledged your intelligence in this regard and I assume that your
experience has given you this knowledge. However, if your'e enthralled with
fat as a fuel for endurance, why don't you pump them up with corn oil at the
vet checks? 
 
 >Did you hear me say anyuthing about 7 pounds of grain? Or are you
 >extrapolating into your netherworld again. You have a very short attention
 >span.
 
 Actually, I was responding directly and relevantly I might add to your
 out-of-context quote from Lon Lewis that fats are unnecessary if carbos are
 sufficient. >

Out of context? What you mean is "out of line". You asked for the quote, I
gave it to you, and it gave you The Vapors.


>Given the example I gave you, I demonstrated that carbos are
 NOT sufficient unless you were feeding seven pounds.>

And, in the endurance horse--an entirely separate species, seven pounds is
disaster, right? 
 
  >Well, you have some experience in one area. Tying up the problem? Sounds
 like
 >you haven't solved it.
 
 >No, my problem with this mare is that she gets silly on more than two pounds
 of grain at a time.  I solved it by not feeding her more than two pounds at
 one time, and made up the difference she needs in calories in corn oil.  Go
 figure.>

Feed the exercise. Change the carbohydrate mix. Check for ulcers. Consider
probiotics. 
 
 
 
 >Try up to 25 lbs of sweet feed. Plus an equal amount of grass hay--won the
 >Japan Cup with that one.
 
 And that relates to endurance horses...how?>

Simply to demonstrate that an individual horse can tolerate, and actually
require, far more carbohydrate-based energy than you think. 

 
 >Again, I'm not talking about grain in these discussions.
 
 
 We're talking carbohydrates to supply "sufficient energy" last I checked.  I
 gave you a very clear and common energy requirement example.  If you'd like
 to do the math using a carbo powder, it still adds up to just carbos.
 You're implying by quoting Lewis that fats are unnecessary.  Go ahead, show
 me how to supply an extra 10 Mcals a day without either fats or a large
 amount of grain.>

Simple. Lots of feedings of smaller amounts.
 
 >Then you can quickly prove me wrong in the field--you should be slavering
 to
 >do it. Eh?
 
 >Thank you, no.  I have no interest in involving myself with racetracks.  As
 far as endurance horses?  Sure.  Meetcha at a 50 mile ride or better
 anytime, big guy. >

I've been thinkng about bringing my thermography unit to a ride, just for fun.
I've been to endurance rides, by the way. And ride-and-ties. 
 
 >I peruse 3700 papers a month and read, completely, about 300 of them. Not
 >counting journals. My job is to deliver technology to my clients. The fact
 >that you don't recognize science derived from other species suggests to me
 >that your reading is very limited.
 
 >Actually, it indicates that I have a basic and very thorough understanding
 of the digestive physiology of a number of different species---which is why
 I know what theories might apply between species, and which don't.  I
 wouldn't make the erroneous assumption that fats are utilized and relied
 upon the same way between humans and horses any more than than I would
 assume horses can tolerate moldy hay just because a cow can.>

But you still can't appreciate that a horse digests in the same way whether
he's a sprinter or an endurance horse. Interesting. I'd suggest more field
experience in other equuine athletic disciplines. 
 
 
 >I don't consider you a Poobah--just a follower--perhaps a Poobah in
 training.
 >But tunnel vision is tunnel vision. And fear is fear--you're afraid I'm
 right,
 >so you can't bring yourself to actually try it once and see what happens.
 
 >Yes, Tom, it's true.  I quake and quiver every time I see a bag of corn and
 practically had a fit when my daughter suggested making sugar cookies for
 Daddy.  Sheez.  Talk about ignoring numerous statements to keep dear your
 own notions.  What was the word you used...?  Netherworld?>

You're the one who started this fight--snidely begging for a quote from Lewis.
 
 
 >So you're saying that the ingestion of high levels of
 >carbohydrate and subsequent rise in blood glucose will not shut down fat
 >metabolism in the horse???
 
 >Sure it will, I've been trying to tell you that for years.  But why would I
 want to do that to an endurance horse?  You *do* understand that these
 horses go for 50 miles or better, right?>

No, they don't. They perform intermittant exercise with near-full recovey
between bouts. 
 
 
 >Your courage quotient went up 20 points. So why don't you fund yourself a
 >quick and dirty experiment to prove me wrong once and for all? It'll cost
 you
 >$0 for the materials. Save up some of your altruism for more important
 >sacrifices.
 
 >We do have some stuff in the works regarding fluid shifts as a function of
 feed source and feeding interval.  We had other stuff planned, but KER is
 working on a bunch of that right now, results expected this spring, so I'll
 wait to hear their results.  If you're so hot to get some "real" research
 done, why don't you supply the funding?  I seem to remember you bragging
 about the plush new luxury cabin cruiser you bought for yourself last
 winter, so I guess I can understand why you couldn't afford the airfare to
 attend the ICEEP meetings.  Maybe you've recovered financially since then.>

First things first. 
 
 
 >Good for you. Now put your mind where your mouth is.
 
 Already did, Tom.  That's why I'm one of the authors published *in* ICEEP,
 not just waiting for it to show up on the bookstand.
 
 
If you read the proceedings of the past 4 ICEEPS you will not fail to see my
work referenced. That's the sign of work with impact.

ti