Re: RC: Reply from an educated derelict

[Tivers@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/26/99 8:51:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
dleblanc@mindspring.com writes:

<< > >However,
 > even ti admits the use of the CC type products is not an exact science yet
 > and 
 > there is a risk of horses "bottoming out" (no, not imploding-just quitting)
 > if not monitored carefully.>
 
 >You don't have to monitor--you simply have to keep up the supplement--or 
run 
 >out of gas. And if you run out of gas, no horse will die--after all, 
there's 
 >all those VFAs to survive on, right?
 
 You've apparently done a great deal of work with race horses on what we
 consider to be extremely short distances.  The very long distances we deal
 with are a very different picture from a physiological standpoint.
 Considering that, do you have any actual data to back this up?  IIRC, you
 previously stated that your personal experience with endurance was limited.>

Limited, not non-existent. My personal experience is severely limited in all 
areas.

  >None of your books reference anything having to do with long distance
 racing, and primarily deal with breeds that aren't used in our sport (there
 are exceptions, obviously).>

I read the literature. I've previously written about racehorses--most of that 
work derived from the literature. 
 
 <So, what studies have you directly participated in with respect to
 endurance?  What were the results of these studies?  Are any of them
 published in peer-review journals?>

Looking for academic credentials? I have none. Except that there are many 
references to my work in peer-reviewed journals, and I spoke before the AAEP 
way back in 1982. Recently, my Efficiency Score invention was trialed and 
found to be the equivalent the VO2Max test in a peer reviewed journal--easier 
to perform in the field and far less risky to the horse. I was one of the 
first, working with George Maylin, Matthew, and Fred Fregin, to develop the 
onboard hearrtrate monitors that everyone is using today. George's technician 
actually came up with the first working oprototype and Roger Rittenhouse 
later perfected it. I've written 8 well-documented books concerning various 
aspects of equine sportsmedicine, pioneered the use of infrared thermography 
diagnostics in performance horses, introduced interval training in 
racehorses, helped pioneer the use of muscle stimulators in the rapid healing 
of bowed tendons and suspensories, invented glycogen loading techniques (by 
accident) that have won millions of dollars in purses for others,  Publish a 
newsletter each month that shares the information and experiences of about 
700 trainers worldwide, have designed exercise protocols for two many stakes 
winners to count, and have never, ever, failed to pass on information that 
would help someone else. There's more, but why bother? No academic 
credentials whatever.  

I do know, and have worked with, quite a number of endurance folk and their 
horses. Lif and Teddy will tell you that I've been hanging around for a 
while. 

 
 > >All of us are risk takers. Any horse sport
 > involves an element of danger to both rider and animal. Some choose to
 > accept high risks to acheive a certain goal, others would like to minimize
 > risks to acheive a different goal. So be it-but you need to know the risks
 > if you are to avoid or face them! >
 
 >You have yet to demonstrate, remotely, any risk at all to carbohydrate 
 >supplementation during a ride. 
 
> You haven't demonstrated anything one way or the other here.>

I'm not the one who is hysterical.   
 
 >Indeed, the reports coming in indicate benefit--for the horse. 
 
 Reports from who?  Are we dealing with anecdotal evidence, or are we
 dealing with properly designed studies?  How was the data collected?  How
 many horses were in the sample?>

You're the academic. That's your job. And if you don't hurry, I'm going to 
beat you to that, now that I have a complete physiology lab to play with. 
Give me a couple of weeks.
 
 >Your dire warnings, and those of Heidi, are 
 >motivated, in my opinion, by something other than the welfare of the 
 >horse--perhaps squirming attempts at defending past "pronouncements" from 
on 
 >high. Again, I confess that I can't fathom the logic.
 
 I read it differently.  I believe she's just asking you to document the
 risks and benefits.  I see no "dire warning" here - just merely asking you
 to document your claims of benefit, and substantiate what the risk factor
 is.>

Really? Again, these are the games of academics. You can't prove a negative. 
I know that the academic religion is that all nutritional supplementation is 
quackery, or drugging, or horrifically dangerous unless a deficiency is 
demonstraed. That's your problem, not mine. Have at it--prove me wrong. 
You've got the lab, the funding and the credentials--save the world from me. 
I'll even help fund the study if you come up with a useful protocol.  


 > I have a hard time believing that anything is utterly risk-free -
 TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.  So, how many horses
 have you tried this on that participated in endurance rides, and what were
 the results?  Were there _any_ negative results?>

Yes, we differ in approach. We differ primarily in our approach to retention. 
I can tell you that it's been tried many more times than have been documented 
in this newsgroup. there have been no negative results other than those 
already mentioned--which, if you've actually been reading this stuff, you'll 
know about already. 
 
 >Since you like to question motivations, I'll lay mine out right now - I
 don't do research in this area, I don't have any books or videos to sell,
 and I'm not a vet.  I'd just like to have more competitive horses that are
 fit to continue for many, many more years to come.>

Excellent. You must make a living doing something? Sounds like research to 
me. Now, if you're not a pure academic, then you just might have a touch of 
curiosity in your blood. If that's the case, then you and I might just become 
good friends and discover some things together--things that will produce 
competitive horses that will continue to deliver for many more years to come. 
And, hey, there might just be a good book or video in it--somebody else can 
benefit, too!
 
 >[more sniping and personal attacks deleted]>

Appreciate that. Hope you don't consider this a personal attack. Just an 
explanation of my academic insufficiencies. I sure don't cnsider your post a 
sniping job. The First Law of sniping is "one shot, one kill."
 
 
 >David LeBlanc
 dleblanc@mindspring.com >>

ti


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