Re: RC: Re: one of your type discussions on ridecamp now

[CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/15/99 9:59:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, Tivers writes:

<< Beside the point. I read your post carefully. Your thrust was that 
endurance horses can't survive without VFAs providing the primary energy for 
the sport. You're wrong, I think. Nothing wrong with quality roughage--just 
as long as it doesn't get in the way of quality energy provision.  >>

My thrust was that you are leaving the VFA's out of the equation.  They are a 
part of normal GI function of the horse, and a major source of energy for the 
distance athlete.  There is nothing less "quality" about the ATP that emerges 
from the Krebs cycel as a result of VFA's going into it than the ATP that 
emerges when carbs are the input.  When you push the scale too far in the 
direction of the carbs, you begin to compromise the gut function in the horse 
and that can have serious repercussions to the horse.  I'm not suggesting 
here that VFA's be the ONLY source, and I think it would be equally foolhardy 
of you to suggest that carbs be the only source in the horse, too.

<<Yes, that is your phobia. Goes against the grain.>>

No phobia here.  Just the reality of looking at the horse as an entire entity 
and taking his GI physiology and function into account.  When that doesn't 
happen, he ends up in the treatment barn with jugs hanging--not an acceptable 
end point in this sport.

<<If carbs are available, the body always uses them instead of fat and 
protein. Carbs block the use of secondary fuels. Fat in the diet also blocks 
the absorption of carbs--that's why we don't feed sludge on raceday.>>

Once again, you are confusing the issue here, Tom.  Fat (more accurately 
triglycerides) is not the same thing as VFA's.  You'll get no argument from 
me that carbs are selected ahead of fats and proteins.  But VFA's, like 
carbs, go DIRECTLY into the Krebs cycle, and are not the product of 
catabolism.  Both are utilized, and both must be considered.  You are correct 
that feeding fat slows digestion--not once in this discussion have I 
suggested feeding fat on race day.  What I AM saying is that the distance 
horse must have his roughage load in order to be producing VFA's (and 
technically that roughage is cellulose--so to get technical, I'm advocating 
VERY complex carbs), and the roughage that is producing those VFA's has to be 
ingested far enough pre-ride to be in the large colon and cecum on ride day.  
This is NOT an instantaneous thing as you describe with more simple carbs.  
Furthermore, in order to keep the gut moving, there has to be a continued 
ingestion of roughage throughout the race, or else the GI process slows down 
and so does the production of VFA's.  What I'm trying to have folks keep in 
mind is that even if they DO supplement with simple carbs to get an immediate 
increase in blood glucose, they must ALSO keep that roughage going to keep up 
the VFA production, or else they will REALLY get into the hills-and-valleys 
with the blood glucose.  Or perhaps you would have them go down the trail 
with a feeding tube in place in which they can run a continuous drip of 
simple carbs to maintain the horse??  You might get some arguments from the 
veterinary Poo Bahs on that one...

<<Nope. A glucose crash will stop the horse dead in his tracks, no matter how 
much sludge is sloshing away in the gut. That's how the discussion 
started--the "bonked" horse. Very likely that horse had a gutfull of fiber in 
transition to FFAs and VFAs. >>

And the horse likely "bonked" because he didn't have enough roughage on board 
to begin with, and hence didn't have his VFA's up to par either.  Or (no, 
could it be?) he was simply overridden...  But then see the feeding tube 
solution above--I guess you think you'd keep him going indefinitely??

<<Without carbs, the hindgut energy provision is completely useless. It will 
not keep the horse alive, much less move it forward. Carbohydrate, glucose or 
glycogen, is the preferred, and indespensible, fuel for every organ in the 
body. Even the heart, which loves VFAs, FFAs and triglycerides, dies without 
carbs.>>

Tom, I've never suggested NO carbs.  Just trying to get you to remember that 
in the distance horse, they are only PART of the equation.

Heidi


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.    
Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp   
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=