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Fwd: FW: Carbos -- a different view

This started out as a private post to Steph as an answer to her post, but
since I later realized she had posted her letter to ridecamp as well, I felt
that my answer should also go there.  Since I cannot forward messages I have
already posted, Steph has kindly forwarded my answer back to me.

In a message dated 98-06-25 20:11:08 EDT, step@fsr.com writes:

<< In a message dated 98-06-25 18:13:53 EDT, you write:
 
 << Am I missing something?
  
  Joe's reference is to not asking a horse to go any faster than his
 conditioning
  base (bone,soft tissue) warrants. This I agree with ... I just don't see the
  physiological danger.  >>
 
 With a burst of energy, many horses have "heart" to overcome severe
 physiological problems and go on--often to their detriment.  If the gut, for
 instance, is relatively empty, and a burst of energy allows the horse to
 further deliver "the goods" to the muscles, the circulation (if the horse is
 dehydrated) can be selectively shut down to the gut to conserve volume and
 cause colic via ischemia to the gut.  Or another scenario--the muscles
 continue to work in the face of an electrolyte imbalance/deficiency because
 there is now plenty of glucose available (O2 is the other factor, but we are
 working aerobically, so this is not a limiting factor) and the horse ties up.
 Or another scenario--because he has the energy to go on in the face of
 electrolyte imbalances, he starts to thump.
 
 The big problem here is that carbs are just that--carbs.  Nothing else.
 Forage provides fat, fiber to produce VFA's, relatively balanced electrolytes
 (depending on the forage) and carbs.   Even grains, as opposed to carbs, have
 other things in them, although their electrolytes are out of balance.  You
 would be amazed how many horses tie up when molasses is used--and molasses is
 nothing but straight carbs.  Get them on more complex feeds and the problem
 goes away.  That was one of the most common feeding errors in the early days
 of the sport.  Some horses can tolerate that, and some just flat can't!
 
 The other issue is that hunger is to some degree regulated by blood glucose
 levels.  If the horse is given an appreciable amount of carbs, he is not
going
 to want to consume as much forage or other feed.  What will this do to the
 amount of electrolyte the horse needs?  Steph, I kid you not, I have owned 2
 PNER mileage champions, one of which was reserve points champion to RT
Muffin,
 and NEITHER ONE was given a single dose of electrolytes the entire season.
 You would be AMAZED at the amount of electrolyte present in forage,
especially
 the grasses, with a bit of alfalfa thrown in if calcium is needed.  I don't
 think you ever met Sansih, who ran 18 rides in one season, Top Tenned 17 of
 them, and was 19 and pregnant at the time.  She consistantly got A's on gut
 sounds and A's down to an occasional B on skin tenting.  I packed two tubes
of
 Select electrolytes in the trailer the entire season and never used them.
You
 have seen Junior--he stays FAT and almost needs to diet even when he is
 competing.  He did 1170 miles in less than 6 months in 1995, including
several
 100's and my multi-day.  He did not run as fast as he was doing the mileage
in
 such a short time and also has a bit of arthritis, but again, he never had a
 single dose of electrolytes and got pretty much A's on his vet cards for
 metabolic functions.  Granted, these horses were selected for efficiency, and
 were mature, but they could not have done that without proper feeding.  Too
 many carbs simply curb the appetite--same thing as you eating dessert 20
 minutes before dinner.  So take the horse who is NOT so efficient with his
 electrolytes and who needs a considerable amount even though he DOES eat.  If
 we diminish his appetite by providing any significant rise in blood glucose
 with straight carbs, how much MORE electrolyte is he going to need?  How much
 more difficult will it be for the rider to figure this out, and not risk
 either underdosing (poor performance) or overdosing (potentially fatal)?  So
 yes, Steph, this is a VERY metabolic or physiological problem.  The horse is
a
 very dynamic beast, usually functioning quite well.  How many more variables
 do we want to put into this equation?
 
 I am not saying that the carbs are a bad thing.  My points here are that 1)
 they need to be used only by people who really KNOW what they are doing and
on
 horses that truly show a need for them.  2) They need to be used with
 considerable caution.  3) At no time should they ever be considered to be a
 substitute for the rest of a balanced feeding program, which INCLUDES
 understanding how roughages work in the aerobic athlete.  This is where Tom
 really misses the boat--I'm sure a lot of his research on carbs is valid, but
 he is starting with a basic lack of understanding of how the digestive tract
 of the horse functions, and how it varies for adaptation to different kinds
of
 work.  Until he looks at the whole picture, he is a loose cannon with his
carb
 info.
 
 Heidi

-- BEGIN included message

Heidi - here's your post, better if you send it, then the return address
does the right thing.

Steph

-----Original Message-----
From:	CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com [SMTP:CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com]
Sent:	Thursday, June 25, 1998 3:40 PM
To:	step@fsr.com
Subject:	Re: Carbos -- a different view

In a message dated 98-06-25 18:13:53 EDT, you write:

<< Am I missing something?
 
 Joe's reference is to not asking a horse to go any faster than his
conditioning
 base (bone,soft tissue) warrants. This I agree with ... I just don't see the 
 physiological danger.  >>

With a burst of energy, many horses have "heart" to overcome severe
physiological problems and go on--often to their detriment.  If the gut, for
instance, is relatively empty, and a burst of energy allows the horse to
further deliver "the goods" to the muscles, the circulation (if the horse is
dehydrated) can be selectively shut down to the gut to conserve volume and
cause colic via ischemia to the gut.  Or another scenario--the muscles
continue to work in the face of an electrolyte imbalance/deficiency because
there is now plenty of glucose available (O2 is the other factor, but we are
working aerobically, so this is not a limiting factor) and the horse ties up.
Or another scenario--because he has the energy to go on in the face of
electrolyte imbalances, he starts to thump.

The big problem here is that carbs are just that--carbs.  Nothing else.
Forage provides fat, fiber to produce VFA's, relatively balanced electrolytes
(depending on the forage) and carbs.   Even grains, as opposed to carbs, have
other things in them, although their electrolytes are out of balance.  You
would be amazed how many horses tie up when molasses is used--and molasses is
nothing but straight carbs.  Get them on more complex feeds and the problem
goes away.  That was one of the most common feeding errors in the early days
of the sport.  Some horses can tolerate that, and some just flat can't!

The other issue is that hunger is to some degree regulated by blood glucose
levels.  If the horse is given an appreciable amount of carbs, he is not going
to want to consume as much forage or other feed.  What will this do to the
amount of electrolyte the horse needs?  Steph, I kid you not, I have owned 2
PNER mileage champions, one of which was reserve points champion to RT Muffin,
and NEITHER ONE was given a single dose of electrolytes the entire season.
You would be AMAZED at the amount of electrolyte present in forage, especially
the grasses, with a bit of alfalfa thrown in if calcium is needed.  I don't
think you ever met Sansih, who ran 18 rides in one season, Top Tenned 17 of
them, and was 19 and pregnant at the time.  She consistantly got A's on gut
sounds and A's down to an occasional B on skin tenting.  I packed two tubes of
Select electrolytes in the trailer the entire season and never used them.  You
have seen Junior--he stays FAT and almost needs to diet even when he is
competing.  He did 1170 miles in less than 6 months in 1995, including several
100's and my multi-day.  He did not run as fast as he was doing the mileage in
such a short time and also has a bit of arthritis, but again, he never had a
single dose of electrolytes and got pretty much A's on his vet cards for
metabolic functions.  Granted, these horses were selected for efficiency, and
were mature, but they could not have done that without proper feeding.  Too
many carbs simply curb the appetite--same thing as you eating dessert 20
minutes before dinner.  So take the horse who is NOT so efficient with his
electrolytes and who needs a considerable amount even though he DOES eat.  If
we diminish his appetite by providing any significant rise in blood glucose
with straight carbs, how much MORE electrolyte is he going to need?  How much
more difficult will it be for the rider to figure this out, and not risk
either underdosing (poor performance) or overdosing (potentially fatal)?  So
yes, Steph, this is a VERY metabolic or physiological problem.  The horse is a
very dynamic beast, usually functioning quite well.  How many more variables
do we want to put into this equation?

I am not saying that the carbs are a bad thing.  My points here are that 1)
they need to be used only by people who really KNOW what they are doing and on
horses that truly show a need for them.  2) They need to be used with
considerable caution.  3) At no time should they ever be considered to be a
substitute for the rest of a balanced feeding program, which INCLUDES
understanding how roughages work in the aerobic athlete.  This is where Tom
really misses the boat--I'm sure a lot of his research on carbs is valid, but
he is starting with a basic lack of understanding of how the digestive tract
of the horse functions, and how it varies for adaptation to different kinds of
work.  Until he looks at the whole picture, he is a loose cannon with his carb
info.

Heidi

-- END included message

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