Check it Out!    
RideCamp@endurance.net
[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next]
[Date Index] [Thread Index] [Author Index] [Subject Index]

Re: Answer to Duncans post about probiotics, flexxion products etc



First, let me appologize for my sarcasm which was not particularly
necessary. Specific comments below.


-----Original Message-----
From: California Horse Adventures <wendyl@jps.net>


[snip]
>  Here's the answers to your questions:
>> MY ANSWER:  First of all, "blatant commercial post" is an opinion.

Certainly my perception which is what lead to the sarcasm. Others read the
post and can make their own judgements.

>Second, my exact words were: "every person that has bought them reported
back
>to me that they work wonders." So please take your sarcasm to them.
>The only time I used the words 100 % was to say that the cookies are made
>from 100% certified organic human grade ingredients. That is true and
>verifiable.

I fail to see a distinction between every person and 100%.

[snip]

> MY ANSWER:  The preservatives used in horse supplements and bagged feeds
>are certainly significant. If it doesn't bother you then keep on feeding
them.
>It bothers me. SIMPLY FROM MY POINT OF VIEW: why are horses and dogs
>becoming more and more diseased and prone to tumors and cancers? Could it
>possibly be because they have gone from diets of pasture and water or hay
>and water to a vast variety of feeds and supplements, sometimes 5-20 lbs a
>day, most of which contain chemicals and preservatives?

They couldn't be labled feed supplements if they didn't contain chemicals -
that is what vitamins and minerals are. I am not aware that there is any
increase in tumor and/or cancer incidence but given the fact that few horses
that died in the past were necropsied, establishing that information one way
or the other is probably impossible. I don't know anyone feeding 20 lbs a
day of supplements, although some may be feeding that much in 'complete
feeds'. I just checked the feed label on 2 items:

Horse guard vitamins: no preservatives or chemicals other than the chemicals
(vitamins and minerals) desired.
LMF Taco pellets (which BTW, I only use in the backcountry where carrying is
impractical and sometimes illegal): does contain artificial flavor (not
something I am wild about, but not something that I seriously concerned with
either), no preservatives or other chemicals other than the chemicals
(vitamins and minerals) desired.

>  Here is one example - go and look at your bags of horse feed. Do you see
>in the list of ingredients on called ETHOXYQUIN or just E ??
>This chemical is manufactured by Monsanto. Employees that handle it must
wear
>protective gear and respirators.
>It is a POISON,  RATED as a hazardous
>chemical by OSHA.
The same can be said of sodium selenite (except the manufacturer). Thats
what you feed your horse if your horse is fed forage from selenium deficent
soils. BTW, ethoxyquin is not listed as an ingredient in the products I use.
It is more likely to be used in feeds with added fat. It is an anti-oxidant.
However, it is entirely possible that it is there by virtue of vitamin E.
Vitamin E is also an anti-oxidant, but the form with bioactivity (alpha) is
poor anti oxidant. In addition, in doing its job as anti oxidant, it is
consumed. The fact that a product is advertised as free of ethoxyquin may
only mean that no extra ethoxyquin has been added by the feed manufacturer
beyond what the vitamin manufacturer of oil refiner put in. One suggestion I
read was that if you wanted to be sure a product was ethoxyquin free, have
it tested by a competitor.

>The Dept. of Agriculture lists it as a pesticide.

Salt is also listed as herbicide. And of course you feed your horses
pesticides such as ivermectin or other dewormer.

>Based on
>body weight , the FDA allows Ethoxyquin to be used in animals foods at a
rate
>300 times higher than permitted as as residue in meat consumed by humans.
>(we get it through animals eating forage sprayed with it)  Is this
something
>you want to feed your horses? Can you measure how much they are getting or
>say for sure how it effects them? Maybe not. Do you want to take a chance?

Specifically it is allowed in animal feeds at 150 ppm. The FDA has
established a tolerance of 0.5 ppm for residues of ethoxyquin in or on the
uncooked meat and meat by-product (including milk and eggs) and 5.0 ppm for
cooked meat and meat by-products of animals fed forage crops or feed
supplements treated with ethoxyquin. For uncooked liver and fat of poultry
fed treated feed, a tolerance of 3.0 ppm has been established. Tolerance
residues of 3.0 ppm have been set for apples and pears [Office of the
Federal Register, 1989, 1990]. Ethoxyquin may be safely used as an
antioxidant for preservation of color in the production of chili powder,
paprika, and ground chili at levels not in excess of 100 ppm [Office of the
Federal Register, 1990]. Since I feed only 2 ounces of vitamin mineral
supplement, even assuming it exists as vitamin E preservative at 150ppm, the
quantity ingested is insiginificant by any standards. Which is my point. I
currently feed 16 lb of hay and 1/4 to 1 lb of grain and 0 to 1 cup oil to
my horses. Neither the hay nor the grain nor the oil is organic. Why should
I go out of my way to worry about 2 ounces of vitamin mineral supplement.

>
>  I prefer to feed my animals human grade, pesticide and chemical free
feeds.
>It is not any more expensive and I can't think of a reason not to.

Uh, we still haven't established the difference between human grade and
animal grade.

[snip]
>>
>MY ANSWER:  A well informed buyer is always a delight. It would behoove
anyone
>to learn enough to discuss nutrition intelligently. However, I would say,
>be careful of much of the advice on ridecamp and consider the source. Nuff
>said.

There are a few posters that I largely ignore. But information that comes
from Susan Garlinghouse, Sarah Ralston, Heidi Smith, Beth Glace, Tom Ivers I
do not dismiss lightly. Which is not say that everything they post I agree
with, but it is rare and only at the margins of science (which is also where
you tend to find their disagreements).
>
[snip]
>>
>MY ANSWER:  Back to the "whole foods" issue that I answered in a different
post.
>When you feed whole foods you don't have to be as concerned as when you
>feed concentrates. IE my horses eat carrots, my dogs eat carrots. My horses
>get 3 cookies a day, my dogs get half a cookie per day. My dogs also used
to
>eat my horses grain and mash back when I used it. They also eat grass. ?

Different species require different foods (whole or otherwise). Dogs
generally don't digest grass well (it usually ends up on the carpet along
with the cat's hair balls). While I don't have a great deal of detailed
knowledge about dog nutrition, I would take a guess that they require amino
acids that would not be readily found in the normal horse diet. I would also
suspect other nutritional requirements are somewhat different.


[snip]

>>YOU You stated the product contained an anti-inflammatory. Assuming you
are
>>talking about non-steroidal product, it then becomes a non-steroidal
>>anti-imflammatory, a class of products that includes aspirin, bute, and
msm
>>among others. All strictly illegal for competition. If you are referring
to
>>GAGs, they are not anti-inflammatories. Your post indicated
>>anti-inflammatory which seemed odd - perhaps msm?
>>
>>MY ANSWER: Winnie's K-9 contains garlic and yucca as anti-inflammatories.

Yucca contains a prohibited anti inflammatory for competition. It is also
not clear why any healthy animal needs to be on any anti inflammatory.
Depending on what injury an animal has, an inflammatory response may be
good. OTH, it in many cases gets out of control which is when an anti
inflammatory is called for. But not routinely.

[snip]


>Wendy
>>

It would be interesting to see the feed label for Winnies Cookies.

Duncan Fletcher
dfletche@gte.net






    Check it Out!    

Home    Events    Groups    Rider Directory    Market    RideCamp    Stuff

Back to TOC