Re: Fw: ANTIBIOTICS AND GUT FLORA?????

[avpinc@bellsouth.net]

Hi, Susan--
     As I stated in my previous post, with so many extremely well-
informed people out there, such as yourself, I was purposely vague
regarding the subject of stomache acid.  Sometimes you hear bits
and pieces from people and I have a tendency not to claim any
knowledge I have no right to.  As it is said, a little knowledge can
be dangerous, so when I only have a little, I make no claim to knowing!
    However, I do know that our products work and I feel confident in
recommending them as they have been, and are being, used and field
tested constantly.  I will forward to you privately, a message I wrote to
another inquiry earlier in the day, and that states ingredients, price, and
ordering info.  I won't put in on the public post, as I think it would be
"over-the-top" in advertising, but I welcome any private inquiries, as
always.    Linda--(AVP, Inc.)

Susan Evans Garlinghouse wrote:

> Hi Linda,
>
> I'm replying publicly to the whole list just in case anyone else is
> following the thread.
>
> Your Bone Heal product sounds interesting, I have heard of similar
> suspensions that help, I assume in a similar manner.  I've been
> instructed to give Maalox along with bute in the past to a horse that
> was suspected of having gastric ulcers.  Maybe they work the same way,
> I'd be interested in hearing more from your end.
>
> I'm a little confused though about your comment:
>
> >       I have been told that it is not the natural stomache acids that cause
> > ulcers,
> > and that some of the meds actually do more harm than good, as they strip
> > the gut of its protective acids in an effort to heal the ulcers.  You all are
> > very well informed on most of these subjects, so you are certainly entitled
> > to disagree, but my info. comes from the chemist who helps put together
> > our formulas.
>
> My understanding is that the stomach lining is protected by mucus
> secreted from the stomach wall, which creates a barrier between the
> acid, primarily hydrochloric acid that would cause or irritate ulcers.
> Was this just a typo? :-)  Anyway, I really don't know much about
> gastric ulcers but am interested in learning more, including about your
> products. (You can email me privately if you like).
>
> Your probiotic supplements sound good also, and I think would be an
> excellent supplement in horses that are having to reestablish an entire
> gut flora population.  However, I still have my preferences in
> supplementing as well with other species besides the lactic-acid
> producing species such as L. acidophilus and L. bifidus.  My primary
> reason is in horses that have a microbial imbalance due specifically to
> a grain overload are going to already have a "bloom" of the
> lactobacillus species, and a die-off of the yeast, protozoal and other
> non-lactic-acid producing species.  Since this in turn can have an
> effect of endotoxin release and potentially laminitis, I like
> supplementing those "other" specieis along with the lactobacillus spp.
> But, anyway, that's just my own preference---as a lactobacillus
> supplement, your product sounds very good, and I'd be interested in
> hearing more.
>
> Thanks for the post!
>
> Susan G
>
> avpinc@bellsouth.net wrote:
> >
> > Susan and Sheri,
> >      We have had some extremely good feedback on one of our products,
> > Bone Heal, in the treatment of ulcers in horses.  It is a liquid based calcium
> > product which helps coat the stomache and relieves the digestive discomfort
> > thus increasing appetite and ultimately also helping with weight loss.  We
> > developed this product to help heal fractures and splints (and it works very
> > well in that, it's original purpose) but my trainer had several horses who were
> > suffering from ulcers and we decided to try this.  She now uses it by the gallon
> > and is very happy with this new use of the remedy.
> >      We also recently developed our own version of the "acidophilus" powder
> > that has been mentioned.  It is considerably more concentrated and very cost
> > effective.  Our product requires tsp. doses, rather than T and is in a finer base
> > which dissolves very easily for mixing with food or water.  We have had some
> > very good reports on our Anidophilus It contains Lactobacilus Acidophilus
> > as well as Lact. Bifidus.
>  If you would like any more information on these products,
> > please feel free to E-mail me privately.  Thanks.
> >                               Linda Flynn, Anico Vet. Products, Inc.
> >
> > Susan Evans Garlinghouse wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Sheri,
> > >
> > > The problem you describe is pretty common, the severity depending on how
> > > effectively the gut flora was disrupted due to the antibiotics.  You're
> > > doing the right thing in feeding your horse probiotics to replace the
> > > gut flora.  However, you might want to make sure that the brand of
> > > probiotics you're using delivers more than just one or two species of
> > > microorganisms---quite a few types of probiotics, ie Bene-Bac, deliver
> > > almost exclusively lactobacillus species, which is fine, but doesn't
> > > help reestablish other types of bugs, such as protozoa, saccoromyces
> > > species or yeasts.  The Forco is delivering some of the yeasts, but you
> > > might consider varying the type of probiotics.  I happen to like
> > > Fastrack, and United Vet has a brand that has a good variety as well.
> > >
> > > I would also suggest that you feed the probios on a daily basis, and if
> > > possible, in small, frequent feedings rather than a single large bolus.
> > > That will help reestablish a good population as well.  Make sure your
> > > horse has a continuous supply of hay, as small amounts of feed traveling
> > > through the cecum will also help reestablish a steady population.
> > >
> > > One other thing is you might ask your vet is about the possibility of
> > > gastric ulcers.  These are pretty common in horses that have been under
> > > stress, as yours has, and the signs you describe sound like this might
> > > be a possibility to check out.  If so, there are drugs which will reduce
> > > the production of stomach acid until the ulcers heal.
> > >
> > > Good luck,
> > >
> > > Susan Garlinghouse, MS
> > > Cal Poly University
> > >
> > > Steph Teeter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <this query is being forwarded for Sheri Thompson - please send
> > > > responses to the ridecamp list so that she can view them through
> > > > the archives. thanks, Steph>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Message:  My horse was on antibiotics on two separate occassions to clear
> > > > up a
> > > > >scratches infection.  Both times while on the antibiotics while either
> > > > doing
> > > > >an endurance ride or training on a long ride he colicked (gas colic).  I
> > > > was
> > > > >told by several veterinarians that the antibiotics had killed off my horses
> > > > >gut flora  (the good stuff) and now he has only gas producing bacteria (the
> > > > >bad stuff) in his gut.  My horse is now on large amounts of probiotics and
> > > > >Forco.  I am looking for anyone with any similar experiences that might
> > > > help
> > > > >me or ease the mystery with this problem.  I let my horse rest for 4 weeks
> > > > >after the second gas colic episode (with only turn outs and hand walking)
> > > > and
> > > > >then I started him back slowly (riding-walking only-about 4 miles every 2-3
> > > > >days) and after the first week of starting him back, when he felt really
> > > > good,
> > > > >I let him trot a little but 24 hours later he acted slightly uncomfortable
> > > > >i.e. popping his lips together, yawning-all the usuaal signs he shows when
> > > > he
> > > > >is a little gassy.  So I am now letting him rest again for 2-3 weeks and I
> > > > >will start riding him at a walk again.  Can anyone that has ever had this
> > > > >problem tell me how long it took their horse to recover totally and what
> > > > they
> > > > >did to help the horse recover from this problem.  Any information regarding
> > > > >this would be greatly appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > >Thank you,
> > > > >
> > > > >Sheri Thompson
> > > > >