Ridecamp: RE: [RC] Pull questionnaire?

Lucy:

Looks good, sounds good but realize we cannot get accurate
information from the rides that has only three
possibilities, lame, metabolic or RO. What makes you believe
your form would be filled out accurately?

Bob

Bob Morris
Morris Endurance Enterprises
Boise, ID

-----Original Message-----
From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Lucy
Chaplin
Trumbull
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:12 PM
To: ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [RC] Pull questionnaire?


Terre:
 > First off, I have no objection to the pull codes being
 > reported but not published. The downside to this is that
 > it deprives other riders of some information about the
 > conditions of a ride they may be planning on attending...

I think pull codes are a poor indicator of this.

A better option would be checking with the RM and asking
about the conditions, and by checking the results to see
what times the ride was done in.

Looking at pull codes may not tell you anything.

I went to Lake Sonoma 50 a few weeks ago. There were 6
lameness
pulls (actually 7 - I was pulled for lameness, but show up
as a
completion - I wish), a metabolic, and four RO.

The ROs included broken ribs/punctured lung, broken collar
bone,
someone who called it a day when they saw the broken ribs
guy,
and a person who's horse decided to flip down a ravine and
land on top of them.

Now, looking at the above you might think "Yikes - that
looks
like a tough ride with difficult footing", but it wasn't.
From
my limited experience the footing was good, the weather was
good, the trail was fairly easy. Even the ride itself was
really
laid-back, relaxed (like when Mouse decided to run backwards
up the trail at the start, trying to reverse into a dozen
horses starting out, it didn't cause any problems).

* * *

 > It is more important that the reason for the pulls
 > be accurately reported. We are trying to amass statistics
 > on WHY horses 'fail'; given a body of data we can begin
 > to dig deeper in an attempt to analyse it....
 > ...
 > 2)"gradation of problem"--ie grade of lameness, etc. IMO,
 > it is a BIG error to focus on grade of lameness as having
 > ANY significance. A horse can be G3 lame with a stone
bruise,
 > or G4 lame with an abscess and be in no danger
whatsoever.
 > It can be less than Grade I lame with a suspensory or
tendon
 > injury and staring in the face of a career ending injury
 > (or even life-ending, but that really IS RO).

I think this is the crux of it. I was wondering if there was
some way of grading the degree of lameness/metabolic
problem,
say on a 1-10 scale, but decided that wouldn't work - as you
say - this isn't an indicator of the severity of a
(brewing?)
problem.

I'm wondering if there's a better way to track these things
over time - maybe an online multiple choice questionnaire?

I'm assuming that most people, if they realise the data is
being compiled by AERC to try and analyze patterns for
problems and for education, they would be willing to fill
it out at their leisure. If they really have a problem,
maybe
they can remain anonymous?

I realise that this would be a big undertaking - setting up
the database and the questionnaire, but it might be worth
the trouble. I've heard reference to a form that people are
supposed to fill in if they are pulled, but don't know much
more about it. Certainly it isn't well publicised.

A database questionnaire would need to be well publicised
and filling it out encouraged as a routine activity, like
checking ride results or the ride calendar.

If it was online, the results would go straight into the
database, and people could fill them out in retrospect -
once they knew what had happened, had digested the problem
and things had quietened down.

I think usually the rider has a good idea why a problem
occurred or at least their rationale for it... (later, it
may turn out to be wrong, as it was with me - what I thought
was a shoeing problem turned out to be a tendon problem...).

Here's an example of the sort of thing (note I'm not a vet,
or have much experience with injuries, etc, so I'm throwing
ideas out. I'm assuming to be useful, the questionnaire
needs
to be detailed enough to explain the reasons, but not so
detailed that it's impossible to compile):

***************************************************
PULL QUESTIONNAIRE
***************************************************

Rider:
Horse:
Ride:
Date of pull:


HORSE:

[ ] How old is your horse
[ ] Stallion    [ ] Gelding   [ ] Mare
[ ] Miles in competition
[ ] Number of pulls

If competed regularly, usual competition speed:
(1 = completes first, 10 = completes last)

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]

Do you think the horse is physically/mentally
well-suited to the sport of endurance?:

[ ] Yes   [ ] maybe   [ ] No

    If maybe or no, give reason for your doubts
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Feet
[ ] Legs
[ ] Back
[ ] Body style
[ ] Mental state (doesn't settle/eat/drink well/doesn't like
to do distance)
[ ] Other _________________________


Were you happy with the horse's level of conditioning
for the particular ride?

[ ] Yes   [ ] maybe   [ ] No


***************************************************

If you pulled your horse because you were unhappy
with his demeanour for that particular day, but it
wasn't severe enough to warrant an automatic pull,
please indicate reason:

[ ] Possible brewing lameness issue
[ ] Possible brewing metabolic issue
[ ] Horse not having fun
[ ] Horse tired
[ ] Other _____________________________


***************************************************
or
***************************************************

SURFACE FACTORS

[ ] Tack gall
[ ] Injury on trail (stick in leg, etc)
[ ] Other ____________________________


***************************************************
or
***************************************************


LAMENESS:

1) What was the nature of your horse's lameness
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Foot injury
[ ] Tendon injury
[ ] Ligament injury
[ ] Muscle injury
[ ] Bone injury
[ ] Other ___________________________

2) Why do you think your horse went lame?:
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Trail conditions (slipped in mud, stone bruise from
rocks, etc)
[ ] Insufficient conditioning (horse not up to the severity
of trail, etc)
[ ] Pre-existing weakness (old injury, brewing abcess, etc)
[ ] Shoeing problems
[ ] Operator error (rider rode too fast for
conditions/horse's fitness level)
[ ] Other  __________________________

3) How severe was the lameness?:

[ ] Sound in a few days
[ ] Sound in a week
[ ] Sound in two weeks
[ ] Sound in a month
[ ] Lengthy recovery
[ ] Never recovered

4) Did the lameness require treatment?
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Mild buting
[ ] Lengthy buting
[ ] Icing
[ ] Magnets
[ ] TENS
[ ] Confinement
[ ] Rehabilitation (regular regime of hand-walking, etc)
[ ] Surgery
[ ] Other _____________________


***************************************************
or
***************************************************

METABOLIC:

1) Why do you think your horse experienced metabolic
distress?
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Insufficient eating/drinking during ride
[ ] Insufficient eating/drinking prior to ride (didn't
settle well in camp)
[ ] Insufficient eating/drinking prior to arriving at ride
(hard trailer ride)
[ ] Operator error (rider rode too fast for
conditions/horse's fitness level)
[ ] Trail conditions (too hard for level of conditioning,
etc)
[ ] Weather conditions (very hot, very humid, etc)
[ ] Hormones
[ ] Other _________________________________


2) Nature of metabolic problem:
    (check any that apply):

[ ] Hanging pulse
[ ] Not eating/drinking well
[ ] Colic
[ ] Thumping
[ ] Dehydration
[ ] Severe distress
[ ] Other ________________________


3) If colic, please give degree of colic:

[ ] Mild (eliminated in a few hours)
[ ] Moderate (required some treatment)
[ ] Severe (required aggressive treatment)
[ ] Required surgery


4) If colic, please give probable reason:

[ ] Gas
[ ] Impaction
[ ] Obstruction
[ ] Metabolic shut-down
[ ] Other ____________________________


5) Was your horse treated for metabolic problems?

[ ] Banamine
[ ] IV fluids
[ ] ...


6) At this point in time, do you feel you understand
    the reason for the metabolic problem?

[ ] Yes    [ ] Maybe    [ ] No


7) If yes (or maybe), how have you (tried to) remedied it?

[ ] Different feeding regime
[ ] Different training regime
[ ] Different conditioning regime
[ ] Different ride strategy
[ ] Retired horse from regular competition
[ ] Other ______________________


***************************************************
Any other comments:

____________________________________________________

____________________________________________________

***************************************************

All these are ideas. The vet committee probably has a better
idea
what they are looking for.

In many cases, there are multiple reasons for problems, so
to
have a full picture it helps that a person can check several
boxes.

Just an idea...


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * *
Lucy Chaplin Trumbull
elsie AT foothill DOT net
Repotted english person in Sierra Foothills, California
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * *


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=
 Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net,
http://www.endurance.net.
 Information, Policy, Disclaimer:
http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe
http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp

 If you are an AERC member - PLEASE VOTE in the Director at
Large
 and By Laws Elections.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.
 Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/Ridecamp
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe http://www.endurance.net/ridecamp/logon.asp

 If you are an AERC member - PLEASE VOTE in the Director at Large 
 and By Laws Elections.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=