Ridecamp: Re[4]: [RC] carbohydrate fuel

Susan Concur - no disagreements with you comments here.
With all the past problems  I had to endure using this , I have chosen
to be very cautious, I will back off If something just dont feel
right, no matter how well he thinks he feels.
As I refine the carbs use
balanced with the fiber from Bp/hay  and gains. I can see the benefits
to keeping the horses glucose levels at normal. I do see the horse really
wanting to keep all the other systems in balance also. That is , given I
offer elytes in small doses also, and he has good GL levels he really
does drink better then if I only used elytes.
I dont see my use  of this supplement as one to make a mean racing
machine but to help keep him going on steady and well balanced.

I am or was really concerned about the issue of glucose induced fluid
balance issues.. or out of balance - due to the internal fluid shifts you
addressed.
I opt for using the levels I am comfortable  with - as better.
If and when we get back to going faster ( racing) I will have to re-
address our program. We are now so far back in our program- it will
take the rest of this year to get back where we were a year ago.



SG>> Roger, you commented that views regarding carbs have matured in recent years
SG>> (did I get that right?) 
Yes. I think when this all started it was a bit of a 'shotgun approach' the
magic bullet. NO SUCH THING.
I built my horse first - that is conditioned him for the task, taught
him to run and work hard and hang tough... then figured out how to
fuel the effort.   When the standard protocol did work to my
satisfaction I tried something else - outside the box or bag..
BUT he was conditioned first.
Roger R



>> > All are surely different - its all based on their basal metabolism
>> and how they process the 'sugars' - Glucose Tolerance Factor. More
>> science from Susan G here??

SG> I agree, every horse is different, based on insulin production and cellular
SG> insulin resistance.  There's actually very little known about this
SG> phenomenon in horses---KER has been looking at it in recent years, but last
SG> I checked, hasn't come close to fully exploring it yet.  Sarah Ralston at
SG> Rutger has published research on it as well.  You really do need to do your
SG> homework with carbs and spend time working out the protocol that works for
SG> each horse.

SG> Roger, you commented that views regarding carbs have matured in recent years
SG> (did I get that right?)  Having discussed this topic with physiologists,
SG> nutritionists and such for several years, I think the initial concern was
SG> that there *are* limits and caveats to the use of any carbohydrate, and
SG> worry that such supplements would be used to replace conditioning, and/or
SG> used to the exclusion of other common sense management practices, like
SG> adequate fiber, fluids, etc.  Most riders IMO have done a pretty good job of
SG> playing around with it and working out the kinks and honestly, I haven't
SG> heard of a single horse that was seriously damaged by the use of carbocharge
SG> type products.  I *have* heard of numerous horses damaged by poor rider
SG> judgment, but that occurs with or without carbs.

SG> Allison, you made a comment that barring stupidity, you can't overdo the
SG> carbocharge.  Actually, there are scenarios where carb supplements s might
SG> be more of a hindrance than a benefit, ie in a seriously dehydrated horse.
SG> The reason is because a lot of glucose in the small intestine can produce an
SG> osmotic gradient (similar to salt in a salt shaker drawing air humidity to
SG> itself) and thus either draw water from the blood circulation into the lumen
SG> of the gut (not good and possibly critical, depending on the dehydration
SG> level of the horse) or at least slowing down the movement of water from the
SG> gut into circulation.  It's confusing, because you need a little glucose to
SG> transport sodium and chloride into circulation---but *too* much glucose (or
SG> electrolytes), and you hamper water absorption.  How much glucose does it
SG> take to hamper water absorption---I don't know.  Jon Linderman might have an
SG> idea, it occurs in human athletes as well.  My opinion is that 4 ounces in
SG> an hour isn't nearly enough to be a problem, especially if the carb source
SG> is a maltodextrin versus a simple sugar like pancake syrup.  Six or eight
SG> ounces an hour, I would guess that would be a concern.  Stay away from those
SG> levels (and pay attention to preventing dehydration in the first place) and
SG> I'd guess you'd be fine.

>>
>> Thats  why I believe it so important to test the Blood Gl levels to
>> develop the horses baseline for 'cause and effect'.  Once I have the
>> correlation to work to carbs and glucose levels, its easy to adjust.

SG> I agree.  There is *never* a replacement for doing your homework for your
SG> own horse.  Life would be much simpler if the darn critters would just read
SG> the textbooks and follow the rules. <g>


>> I would really like to test at rides but if they outlaw that then I
>> have to go on home testing results. Then 'guess' if we increase work
>> effort at a ride.

SG> I would be sorry if simple glucometers were outlawed.  I can see not
SG> allowing the really fancy-shmancy field analysis equipment like i-Stats, but
SG> glucometers are cheap enough to be accessible to everyone and a worthwhile
SG> tool to assess the horse's metabolic status.


>> I suspect it would be difficult to really OD - as Allison said- at a
>> ride while the horse is working.

SG> If you kept the doses within reasonable limits, and dosed them frequently
SG> and consistently, I would agree.  I think the problems are likely to occur
SG> as described above if the horse were significantly dehydrated, and a really
SG> large dose were administered all at once.  There *are* significant caveats
SG> to be concerned with if the carbohydrate source were grain, but that's
SG> something else entirely.  And even those are avoided if you keep the meals
SG> under four pounds and fed frequently.

SG> . That is you cannot ask for more work then he is capable of
>> performing. You can only work him to the level you have conditioned
>> him for.  The mistake one makes is to allow the horse to work beyond
>> his condition. Just because he has the desire to move out and feels
>> strong - does NOT mean he CAN or SHOULD. You have to throttle him back

SG> YES YES YES.  That's it in a nutshell. :-)

SG> Susan G



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