*Witez II Bloodlines

["guest@endurance.net" <guest@endurance.net>]

K S SWIGART   katswig@earthlink.net


> I would like an opinion from people more experienced with these lines.
> I am considering breeding to a  stallion that is a Witez II grandson 
> (by Otez.

It may not make much sense to ask about *Witez II lines when 
considering whether to breed your mare to this stallion.  *Witez II is 
not, by a long shot, the only horse in this horse's pedigree, and he 
may have inherited little or nothing from *Witez II, including his 
temperament.  The horse may be nutty as a fruit cake which might have 
nothing to do with his relation to *Witez II. When looking at a horse's 
pedigree, it is a mistake to only look at the names of horses that you 
recognize.  It is far more important, in fact, to look at the horse 
itself.

In any breeding decision, the resulting foal is most likely to inherit 
traits from its parents than from any of the other horses in its 
pedigree--so if you are considering breeding your mare to any stallion, 
be sure you like, VERY MUCH, both your mare (do you want to reproduce 
her?) and the stallion (do you want to reproduce him?)  It is possible, 
of course (and for this reason, anybody considering breeding would do 
well to look at the pedigree as well...AFTER looking at the prospective 
parents, not INSTEAD), for offspring to inherit traits that are hidden 
in the parents but are apparent in the preceding generations, but this 
is significantly less likely than inheriting traits from its parents.

So, the more relevant question is whether you like the horse, not 
whether other people like other horses with similar pedigrees.

> On the other side, he is out of a half sister to my mare 
> (same sire- *Feniks, a polish import) who also carries Witez II 
> farther back. 

Additionally, from this statement, it would appear that if you were to 
breed this stallion, a grandson of *Feniks, to your mare, a daughter of 
*Feniks, (if I am understanding the above statement correctly), then 
*Feniks will be much closer up and much closer bred, than *Witez II.  
The resulting foal, if it is going to resemble one particular horse in 
its pedigree would be more likely to resemble *Feniks than *Witez II, 
so that is the horse you should be asking about.

AND, if this is the case, you need to understand that the breeding you 
are considering is, in most circles, considered inbreeding, with all of 
its attendant risks (if somebody would like to discuss with me why the 
underlying philosophy of how inbreeding only makes sense for people 
engaged in large scale breeding, I am more than willing to discuss it, 
but there is also a very good overview of it in the book _Equine 
Genetics and Selection Criteria_).  Especially since one of the 
generally accepted traits of inbred individuals is that they have a 
tendency to be "crazy" (to use a nice, non-scientific term).

Inbreeding individuals that are already inbred is even more fraught 
with risk, especially if any of the people in the previous (in)breeding 
decisions didn't know/understand the underlying philosophy of 
inbreeding, which is that you have to cull ruthlessly (i.e. throw lots 
of them away).  It is entirely possible that this stallion is one such 
cull (don't know, not having seen the horse myself).

So, unless I a) just absolutely love this particular individual 
stallion and can't bear the thought of not having a foal as much like 
him as possible or b) I am a died in the wool *Witez II preservationist 
breeder and feel that this horse (being so close up *Witez II AND so 
much like his grandsire) is just too stellar of an individual not to 
add to my *Witez II breeding program because I have some mare/s that I 
just KNOW would be a perfect match for him, then I wouldn't even 
consider the notion.

And if I were a died in the wool *Witez II breeder and thought this 
horse might just be the most stellar of *Witez II's progeny that I 
couldn't bear the thought of him not contributing to the gene pool, I 
would spend a LOT of time actually trying to PROVE that he is such a 
stellar individual (i.e. he lives up to the quality of his pedigree and 
looks in performance), and if I thought that his ill manners were a 
function of poor handling (rather than poor raw material), then I would 
handle him properly and see how he responds (which it sounds as if you 
have done, but I would do more than put a saddle on him, I would plan 
to get on his back and take him out for a ride).  Unless I had some 
mare that I wanted to test breed to him right away with the 
understanding that I might just have to, in essence, throw that horse 
away (and my definition of throw a horse away is to put it down, not to 
sell it off to somebody who doesn't know any better).

Since from what I glean from your post that you are not a 
"professional" breeder with the intents of betterment of the breed for 
generations to come, but rather an owner who has a beloved mare that 
has stellar qualities you would like to reproduce in order to get one 
foal that you intend to lovingly raise from a baby to ultimately be the 
replacement for her in your household, I would suggest that you choose 
a stallion that you just love, has the proven qualities that you would 
like most to mix with your mare's (and proven that he passes these on 
to his foals is also nice but not absolutely essential, even though it 
is "safer").  This stallion may meet these qualifications, but it would 
be because you like the horse...not because you like his pedigree and 
you are wondering if the resulting foal might be more like the pedigree 
than like the horse itself.

If, on the other hand, you want to breed your mare so you can sell the 
foal, then breeding to a proven (as in he already has proven progeny in 
the market you are breeding for) stallion becomes the safest way to go.  
Selling a foal from an unproven stallion (both performance and 
production-wise) from a (I assume) maiden mare is not something that 
has much of a chance of economic success (if economics are your 
motivating for breeding and selling a foal) or any success for that 
matter (you might have a real hard time finding a buyer for that 
horse...or even giving it away).  Such a horse would be difficult to 
find a good home for were it not to turn out exactly as you hoped, and 
the chances of it not turning out exactly as you hoped are high with 
such unproven stock as parents.  

The little you know about what this stallion throws (his accidental 
filly) is not promising. Yes, it may be a result of mis-handling rather 
than poor raw material, and that with more expert handling both the 
stallion and his filly might be more civilized individuals.  However, 
there aren't as many expert handlers out there as there are horses that 
require expert handling, producing another one (unless you consider 
yourself an expert handler yourself and you plan to keep the horse for 
its whole life so you don't have to find another expert handler for it) 
wouldn't necessarily be the kindest thing you could do for the foal and 
the horse it is going to grow up to be.

There are MANY proven stallions out there to breed a quality mare to, 
that will give you much better chances of getting the horse you want 
from the mating--breeding to this one would be a little bit like 
Russian roulette.  You MAY get a very nice horse (if the resulting foal 
is anything like *Witez II and many of his progeny), but from the 
information that you currently have, there is a good chance that you 
won't.  Ask yourself what your motivations are for taking that chance, 
and that if you do take that chance, and the resulting foal ISN'T 
everything you hoped for, what ARE you going to do with the adult horse 
that the foal is going to grow up to be--and "Oh, I will sell it" is 
not an answer.  Sell it to whom for what?  

Of course, these are questions you need to ask, no matter what stallion 
you may choose to breed your mare too--think of all the horses you 
MIGHT get from the mating, and then think of what THAT horse is going 
to do with the rest of its life.  As the breeder you are, after all, 
responsible for the existence of that horse.  If you are responsible 
for its existence, it is only reasonable that you are responsible for 
its life.  Do you want to take responsibility for a foal of this 
stallion's no 
matter how it turns out?

kat
Orange County, Calif.