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Re: BET - resolution -TI/Bill/Cliff Part II-other evidence
As an "officer of the court" used to more formal adjudication, I have
followed this "alternative dispute resolution" with great interest,
particularly as I have agreed with Mr. Ivers on many things and have always
admired his revolutionary discoveries about interval training, and his
continuing quest for scientific improvement of horses' performances.
Edie, you did an excellent job as an arbitrator. Just like a judge or jury,
an arbitrator should evaluate evidence--taking into account the credibility
of the witnesses. This is just what you did. In this case there was
"overwhelming evidence" Cliff won the bet.
I think it is wonderful that this "dispute" was handled in such a
sophisticated and sensible way, and I think we ALL learned alot from it, on
so many different levels.
I sincerely hope Tom Ivers will continue to participate on RideCamp with his
lively, sarcastic comments, which I--and I'm certain the majority of
RideCampers--have found refreshing and thought provoking even when I didn't
agree with them. (And, for those of you who disagree with Mr. Iver's
ideas--but don't want to hear them--isn't allowing someone you don't agree
with to voice their opinions what "democracy" and the "first amendment" are
----- Original Message -----
From: EDIE BOOTH <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Cc: <TIvers@aol.com>; <GrandPaws@cs.com>; <CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 6:46 AM
Subject: RC: BET - resolution -TI/Bill/Cliff Part II-other evidence
> from Thorndike /Barnhart ARBITRATOR= 1. person chosen to decide a
> 2. Person with full power to judge and decide. --Syn. 1. judge, umpire.
> Once again, remember, Tom and Cliff accepted me as the arbitrator. Those
> you who asked questions about the data Bill produced deserve a little more
> On Friday, June 15, 2001, I did a lot of research work....only from Public
> sources, i.e. the courthouse, where anyone can view the real property
> for the entire county. The staff showed me how to use their pc software
> never knew what name I typed in. Suffice to say, Bill's ranch is
> less than he has said for his conditioning, 14 mile trail, etc. A friend
> mine who lives very near Bill has been watching for land to lease in the
> for longer than Bill has been there, and there is nothing available for
> There is no evidence there of a horse trail.
> I viewed Bill's farm from the public road and saw the two horse trailer
> was described in the 18 wheeler wreck without any damage. From the road I
> observed Smokey in the pasture rather close up. In my 23 years of
> in endurance riding, I have not seen a horse look like Smokey a month
> long winter of heavy competitions and conditioning. The horse appears not
> have been ridden significantly for months.
> I have seen both of their trucks. They are the same two trucks they had
> November when we did our ride.
> Most significantly I think, I had a detailed conversation with De, Bill's
> wife. I immediately recorded some of her responses to particular
> that I described to her (from Bill's detailed accounts) so that I could be
> accurate as possible.
> The attitude of my conversation with her was non-threatening. I projected
> that, to me, it is no big deal, that it would not affect our relationship
> any way. I projected that it would all be ok, if it were just stories.
> said right away that she knew very little about what Bill had been up to
> line; the first she heard of anything was when someone called her about
> weeks ago and asked some questions. I told her where she could look at
> archives in RideCamp and look at some of it starting back about 2-3 weeks.
> She said, "I know he likes to joke around, maybe he was joking." When I
> if he had knee surgery in May, she just kind of shook her head, and said
> "He's got a joke line going that's not working." When I asked about how
> riding he had done, mentioning that he told me at our ride in November
> had been working so much that he had not been riding, she agreed. She
> "It was probably just a joke that got carried away." Previously, just a
> couple of days following Bill's account of his reconstructive knee
> returned a flashlight to De that they had left at our ride. I said if
> did not help at our ride coming up in June, that maybe Bill could ride.
> were not expecting a lot of riders. De said he had been doing so many
> work that he had not been able to ride Smokey.
> Last Friday, about Bill riding 240 miles per week, she said, "It must have
> been a joke or something." About the trailer wreck, and I had already
> out to see the unblemished gray two horse bumper pull at their place, I
> her about Bill telling about an 18 wheeler wreck on the way to the Frigid
> Digit ride, she said "This is a joke that got carried away. I'll talk to
> him." I suggested the best way for it to go away or calm down would be
> Bill to just go ahead and fess up to it.
> This is not evidence of Bill having done the four rides or not, but
> has a bearing on the evaluation of Bill's data. Draw your own
> No witnesses for any of the four rides have ever come forward.
> When Bill called me last Friday at 7 AM before I began investigating he
> me to "not get involved in this." When I asked why, he said that his wife
> about 3/4 mad at him. I told him it was too late, that I had already
> to checking out his research. I asked him some questions to which most of
> answers were rather vague and he said he did not "have his notes with
> He said a ride manager and a rider would call me. They have not. He gave
> locations for the four ride dates. I called Bill back at work Friday and
> a message on his machine asking for the name of the limited distance
> who had started the other club. I have not heard back from him. We have a
> National AERC Limited Distance Champion in our area who did see Bill
> one morning at a restaurant eating breakfast. She is Patsy Hoffman, and
> has never dropped out of AERC or started another endurance club. There are
> few other LD National Champions -check them on the records on-line.
> The location Bill gave me for one of his rides on Friday would have been
> underwater at the time it should have occurred.
> In lieu of Bill's many other riders, ride managers, and ride vets or vet
> assistants coming forward to corroborate that Bill did the rides, and
> additional related facts, I must conclude that not only does Cliff win the
> bet, but the endurance riders were asking some good questions.
> Because of the personal contact, I am sorry to have gotten involved, but I
> think it is necessary that we base our evaluation of supplements on good
> science, or at least have evidence that the trials and results are sound.
> owe it to the horses, who give us everything. They are the ones who give
> the honest relationships. I did this as carefully and quietly as I could,
> involving any of Bill's friends, businesses or neighbors. I did not
> any of his rights. Draw your own conclusions.
> Now I will batten the hatches for the personal attack. (I have been to
> you know and braved the elements --- .) And get back to reading t s
> Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock.
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