Re: RC: RE: RE: MALIBU RIDE AND TRAIL INCIDENT

[Lynne Glazer <lynne@glazer.org>]

At 11:21 AM -0600 6/19/01, Bob Morris wrote:
>Let us examine this alleged incident in depth.

All righty then!

>First consider that one persons type of abusive conduct is another persons
>normal every day methodology. Perception is very important. There is the
>possibility that the alleged offender was not aware that they were
>offending.

Hey, Bob, do you know that this person's conduct is at least 50% of 
the reason that I didn't do the Malibu Ride?  Based on reports of her 
conduct last year with junior riders in tow, that exactly echo Debbie 
E's report this year?  Along with alleged reports by multiple people 
to ride management, which did nothing?  I won't go ride a ride where 
the management isn't willing to display the moral courage necessary 
to confront and/or disqualify riders that endanger others.  I don't 
want to be on the same trail with a person like this, EVER, 
particularly when management knows of her behavior from past years.

>
>Next consider that the normal route of complaint is initially through the
>Ride Manager. Was the ride manager alerted as to the incident? After all the
>observer in this case had no problem identifying the alleged offender so
>there should be no excuse as to not speak to the RM. And the RM is the
>ultimate responsible party in the case of a complaint as far as the agencies
>would be concerned. It would be only courtesy on the part of the complainer
>to make the issue known to the RM prior to voicing it on Ride Camp.

See my paragraph above.  You bet.  If ride mgmt was told and didn't 
act, then ridecamp is an appropriate venue for discussion and 
shunning.

>
>Thirdly, has the complainer spoken, in a pleasant manner, to the alleged
>offender? To do so would again be a courtesy prior to voicing the complaint
>nation wide. Peer pressure can do many things that rules never accomplish.

It's hard to complain more vociferously when she is endangering the 
life of a fellow rider and horse.

Let her enter my ride, and she's gonna get a phone call ahead of time 
warning her about proper sportsmanship, and alerting her of the 
consequences.  I doubt she'll venture that far east, but who knows? 
It's still "local".  As you know, Bob, I have no compunction 
whatsoever about DQing someone on the spot for rule violations--as 
anyone familiar with the underage horse protest knows.  I hate the 
thought of one bad actor wrecking it for everyone.

>
>Last bit of wisdom, consider the fact that something you do in competition
>may, some day, reflect on you. Would you rather see it on ride camp or hear
>it in private from one of your fellow riders?

Again, nothing was done, and maybe management has plans to "do something".

To the other southern Californians, many of you know that I had hoped 
to put on a ride at Chino Hills next spring.  Too bad how incidents 
like this color endurance riders as bad sportsmen.  At Norco we have 
to be considerate of other trail users, but they don't include 
mountain bikers and rarely include hikers.  But it does include two 
rent strings and lots of people walking their horses!  Chino Hills 
does have a huge mtn bike population, and most of those riders are 
incredibly considerate of equines.  It's too bad that the endurance 
population has to miss out on these gorgeous trails, worth going to 
condition on, at least, particularly in the spring--but they close 
the park if it's rained; call first.

We'll do Norco this year and one more--as other ride managers and key 
volunteers know, it ain't easy. NRR mostly takes place in the 
Riverside County park system--and the event is the biggest thing that 
happens all year!

We need to encourage riders to report this kind of stuff to 
management right away, so the problem can be investigated and 
rectified as soon as possible.  The hindsight stuff doesn't do us 
much good when we have land owners, trail users and parks departments 
to mollify.

Lynne
Norco Riverdance Ride (PS) 9/1/01
http://www.lynnesite.com/nrrtour.html to "pre-ride" the river!



>
>Bob Morris
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Corbelletta, Antonio [mailto:Antonio_Corbelletta@affymetrix.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 10:49 AM
>To: ridecamp@endurance.net
>Subject: RC: RE: MALIBU RIDE AND TRAIL INCIDENT
>
>
>I have a question for the more learned AERC members:  Should this person be
>turned into the Ride Management for unsportsman like conduct?  I think that
>the rules say something about that.
>This kind of behavior is what is going to get us less and less rides.  Also,
>it is going to bring us more to the attention of the anmimal rights folks!
>Especially if after this kind of behavior one of the horses gets sick!  You
>all know what I mean.
>There are lots of people out there who want to get rid of horse everywhere.
>Yes, not all people like horses and I have been told by folks that they
>think that horses are very bad for the environment.  Nutty yes, but the more
>material they get the worse it is for us.
>Frankly, I would not be very happy to be run off the trail by some body on a
>horse or anything for that matter.  I think that the person that got run
>over showed remarkable restraint.  Something that I would not have shown.  I
>would have followed this nut case on my bike, yes I could keep up, let her
>know exactly how I feel.
>But, what should the rest of us 99.9% of riders do when we see this type of
>behavior?  Any ideas?
>Tony C
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: guest@endurance.net [mailto:guest@endurance.net]
>Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:38 PM
>To: ridecamp@endurance.net
>Subject: RC: MALIBU RIDE AND TRAIL INCIDENT
>
>
>Debbie Ekhaml dekarab@home.com
>Hi Everybody,  Well summer is here in So. Ca and the
>Malibu Ride was warm!  This was a very tough ride and
>those that completed should be proud.  Thanks to Karen
>Zontelli for putting on the ride.  Nice prizes and the food
>was devoured.
>    A couple of unfortunate things happened that I want to
>mention because it reflects directly on us as riders and our
>sport.
>     One of those things was ribbons being moved by parties unknown.  Most
>likely not riders and Karen did her best to
>check the trail just ahead of the ride, but these things happen.
>Most everyone mentioned it, but it seemed most took it in stride
>which was great.
>     The other occurred on the LD ride.  My first observation was
>an individual who took off at a dead gallop as soon as the controlled
>start was over.  I know some horses have to go (I have one myself)but this
>was ridiculous.  This person continued this for 3-4 miles, then waited on
>the side of the trail for
>his/her friends which were also slow galloping.  This group was lead by a
>"sponser" being paid to get juniors through the ride.
>The problem I had with this was the complete lack of trail etiquette
>displayed by the sponser.  She actually kicked at my friends horse to move
>it over as she went barreling past with her 3 juniors in tow.  She went on
>to run a lady mountain biker
>(about 50 years of age) off a section of singletrack causing the biker to
>fall when her horse bumped the bike as the lady was trying to get off the
>trail.  The rider was too impatient to wait.  I observed this as I was in
>line right behind this group.
>   I asked the woman if she was ok (she was holding her arm) and she
>assurred me she was.  Later, this group took a wrong turn
>  and did a short extra loop.  As I was riding toward the photographer,
>they came up behind me and I heard the sponser say
>"oh great, now we're in last place.  I yelled over my shoulder that they
>were not and I would let them by ASAP.  We were on a downhill, rocky
>singletrack, and when I was able to let them by, they again GALLOPED past.
>I informed the last junior that this was NOT a race and it fell on deaf
>ears.  They were obviously determined on making up time.  At VC 1, one of
>the juniors was pulled for lameness.  The rest went on to finish (I will
>not say where as it was LD and doesn't matter).  At the pre-ride meeting,
>Karen SPECIFICALLY asked everyone to respect the other trail users as we
>were in a state park and could lose the ride if people complained.  I
>don't want to start a debate on LD, but I have a real problem with a
>"Sponser" teaching our next generation of riders that this sort of
>behavior is acceptable.
>I was totally disgusted with the treatment of thier mounts by
>riding this way.  This was a tough, technical trail.  It was
>bad enough how their fellow riders were treated, but what about the public
>who was exposed to their bad behavior and now may
>well have a negative feeling about our sport?  I hope these
>individuals involved take a long hard look at their behavior
>and CHANGE IT IMMEDIATELY.  I go to rides to have fun, however
>I am a competitive rider.  One can be competitive without being
>inconsiderate.  Thanks Karen again for having the ride so I
>could have a getaway weekend!  Debbie and Razal
>
>
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