"The Bet is on!"

["guest@endurance.net" <guest@endurance.net>]

Cliff Rutherford  GrandPaws@cs.com
=================================
Cliff Rutherford GrandPaws@cs.com
ti wrote:
> Cliff, > > Excellent. >
> By separate emial I am sending you scanned copies of vet cards > for three
of > Bill's 4 rides. The fourth ride, Bill came in with a broken arm > and
broken > knee. He's still recovering from surgery on the knee. Don't know what
> documentation Bill has from that ride, but information thus far > is that he
> initially was disqualified, but now has a completion ( he was > first over
the > line)--we'll see what he has from that one. >> It was also suggested
that the whole thing was a gigantic hoax, > including the > accidents, etc.
I'm sure Bill can document his surgery. Maybe he has a > picture of the rolled
trailer from the first accident. Would > guess that he
> has insurance documentation.>

I am loathe to request DPS accident reports or medical records. Accidents
and surgeries can have many causes and reasons, and we are specifically
working toward proving legitimacy in Bill and Smokey's training and event
reports.

> Tell me what else you need and we can both send a check for $1000 > to
Bill. > He can, in turn, scan both checks and you and I will be satisfied >
that each > has kept his word. You are a true sportsman, Cliff. >

Please see a copy of the original bet offer and acceptance pasted below.

> As far as names are concerned, Bill would prefer not to expose > the names
of > others participating in the rides to Ridecamp, for obvious > reasons. But
I am > sure that he will provide you with information that will satisfy you >
privately, and then you can express that satisfaction to Ridecamp while >
avoiding punishment of the people involved in those rides.> 
> Tom Ivers, President> Equine Racing Systems, Inc.> ERS Home Page >

Tom, I'm resending copies of the original posts for you to reread. Let me
know if there is any required documentation you don't understand or think
you will be unable to provide. My thousand has already been transferred to a
trust account, custody of Dr. Smith, as per your original instructions. I'll
send account information privately so you can verify the amount and transfer
matching funds so we can move forward with this.

While I appreciate the vet cards, they are difficult to manage at 30x45
inches (23 meg), and don't provide any real information such as vet's name,
ride name and location, ride manger's name, any information about the
sanctioning club, or give Dr. Smith any way to verify that there was an actual
event with more than one competitor. Of course, individuals names and contact
information will be kept confidential. I'm sure that there must be a few of
these people (I requested only six names total) who would be willing to step
forward in order to help contribute $2000 to Bill's medical
expenses.

I also consider copies of your correspondence with Bill interesting;
however, it provides nothing that can be considered proof that these
workouts or events actually occurred. I would also prefer to keep this as
public as possible (keeping the supporting individuals names and contact
information private), since it is for the 'good of the people'.

Certainly the arbitrator/judge and each party needs to have hard copies of
the evidence; no one should be required to open a zip file in view of the
possibilities. That means we need to exchange snail addresses. I am about to
make a move, so I will be off-line anyway in about a week.

While I have tried to be as clear and concise as possible, I know it is
still a little complicated. Again, please specify if there is required
documentation you don't understand or think you will be unable to provide.

Cliff

***original posts pasted below***

***----- Original Message ----- From: Tivers@aol.com To: CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com
; kathy_mayeda@atce.com Cc: ridecamp@endurance.net Sent: Saturday, May 12,
2001 12:13 AM Subject: RC: Bill and Smokey
<snipped> > > Tell you what. I'll bet $1000 that what he says is true and I
will provide > > adequate proof to anyone who will put up the cash. We'll let
you hold it. <end snip>

*** acceptance of Tom Ivers bet by Cliff Rutherford and specifics of
"adequate proof" *** posted to ridecamp@endurance.net from:TOS@htcomp.net
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:01 AM Subject: RC: Fw: "Let's Get It On!"

Becky, I sent this morning, but it hasn't come thru on ridecamp.  Can you
please forward for me?  Thanks, Cliff

----- Original Message ----- From: <GrandPaws@cs.com >Subject: Re: "Let's
get it on!"

> I have recently looked at the RC archives and have some interest in
solving > a mystery. I think it would be interesting and to everyone's
advantage to > bring this topic to a `known` conclusion. Since I am able, I
will play the > devil's advocate and take up ti's bet. This will help
facilitate a > conclusion one way or 'toothier. I do not personally know
either ti, Bill or > Heidi, have no agenda or business interests, other than
the curiosity to > find the truth. > If Bill is correct, and his detailed
records seem to bear that out, he can > certainly use the cash for medical
expenses. If his detractors are correct, > that his horse has not done these
great performances in competition with the > use of supplements, then new
riders should not be hoodwinked into thinking > so.
>
> So.......
>
> Bet's ON!!!!
>
> We need to clarify a few of the terms, which will provide "adequate
proof".
>
> I'm sure that I have not read all the posts on this topic, but I noted
there > were at least three event dates mentioned, March 10, April 21, and
May 5, > 2001. Just in case of misplacement or loss of vet cards from one
date, let's > simplify it for Bill and ask for the names of the vets who
worked two of  > these rides, so that the actual persons can be identified
and contacted for > verification. > > Additionally, it should not be too
difficult to provide the date, location, > event manager or secretary and
ride results of 2 out of three events with > names, addresses, phone #s of
the persons who managed these events and one > person who worked or competed
in each of the 2 events. That should keep Bill > from having to run down too
much information if any of the events are > outside his stomping ground of
East Texas.
>
> Essentially, this will be providing location of 2 events and identity of 6 >
people who can verify Bill's / Smokey's  performance --- 3 people at two >
different events (veterinarian, manager and ride secretary or competitor.) I >
am sure a ride manager or secretary could provide a competitor list, since >
rules are very similar to AERC, and that way a random sampling or two of >
competitor accounts could be taken by Heidi. Every gossip/backbiter should >
be squelched with that kind of evidence, which would also prove that each >
event was not a single competitor ride. >
>
> Let me now include ti's challenge in its entirety--copied from the
archives: 

> > > Heidi >> >> I'll try to keep it very simple, for you, Heidi.
Since Bill > has been posting > information on my list, perhaps a dozen fine
people from > this list have > harassed him directly, or through others,
essentially > calling him a liar. > That is backbiting. > > > > I've advised
Bill to provide no more information at all--he has the vet > > slips--so that
the gossips can stay real busy. He is badly hurt and need > > not respond to
the busy bodies and retards who MUST know all the details of > > his life, and
whose goal is simply to make him out a liar.

> > > > Tell you what. I'll bet $1000 that what he says is true and I will
provide > > adequate proof to anyone who will put up the cash. We'll let you
hold it. > I > will provide you alone with the proof, on the condition that
you reveal > it > only after we  have a player or two. I will donate the
winnings to > Bill's > medical bills. > > > > Fair enough? Ante up and let's
have at it. > >

> > ti > > > > Tom Ivers, President > > Equine Racing Systems, Inc. > > ERS Home  Page > >
>

> Since ti has stated, and I quote again from the archives "> Tell you what.
> I'll bet $1000 that what he says is true and I will provide > adequate
proof > to anyone who will put up the cash. ", let's add verification of a
statement > that Bill has made. The Texas DPS is going to be loathe to
verify an > accident record for the sake of an internet game, so let's take
something > that is a matter of public record: 250 acre farm ownership. Bill's
realty > transactions or ownership can be verified in the County Courthouse
(county > of his residence/farm) as a matter of Public Record. Additionally,
the tax > office can provide records without infringing upon anyone's privacy
rights. 

> Once again, I quote Bill from the archives: "The test track is a 240acre >
pasture on our farm. trail is flat, with > numerous> curves and
bends to get > the 14 miles. mileage was measured with an> ATV when> trail
was first laid > out." > > Even with the amount of rain we have had this
spring in Texas, a 14 mile > trail ridden last winter for as much as 240
miles per week would still be a > visible worn track on our East Texas
soils. Where is the farm/trail?

 > > (this is in an exchange between ti and
Bill in the archives..........quoted > here on `overtraining`: " > --- In
horsesciencey..., OasisArab@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 2/17/01
1:40:02 AM Central  Standard Time, > Tivers@a... > > writes:
>> > > > Note that this chapter was devoted to the study of endurance > > >
athletes--things > > are somewhat different with overtraining in speed >
athletes. Also > note that > > 3 > > hours a day of easy lope in a horse >
amounts to about 45 miles. > > > > > > Tom Ivers > > 

>> > > It would appear to me that "overtraining" is relative. Some  athletes >
> will > have different ideas and reactions to overtraining. In our case, >  >
during a 7 > day period we will log +/- 240 miles, some flat speed work, >
some > hill work, > > etc. with 1 complete day off thrown in the middle ..."
>
>
> It would be interesting to see medical records of Bill's presumed surgery, >
but any verification of that would be infringing on Doctor/patient >
`privilege`, besides the fact that anyone can have surgery for joint >
problems without having the joints screwed up by a horse accident.
 SOOOoo, > let's pick another verifiable statement and again I quote the
archives from > Bill describing his first win: <snipped> "ride consisted of
the following: > loop #1 - 11.2 miles 30 min hold loop #2 - 14.5 miles 30 min
hold loop #3 - > 13.1 miles 30 min hold loop #4 - 11.2 miles trail
conditions - wet but not > muddy water was abundant on trails. Trails where
combination of fast flat > areas, deeply wooded forest and several steep, long
hills. All  trails are > permently marked with mile markers." > >

OK---Where is the trail? Again, I quote, " All trails are permently marked >
with mile markers." Anyone should be able to see the mile markers. This goes >
along with the first part of the verification, ie location of 2 of the 3 >
rides mentioned on specific dates. >
>
> And one last verifiable fact: the name and number of the lady, the career >
Limited distance rider, who was National Champion a few years back, who >
became disenchanted with AERC and founded another Club. Then once we have >
looked at her AERC Limited Distance Championship record, we can have her >
verify that her club put on the rides on the dates  where Bill did so well on
> his supplemented horse. She can disclose the name of the organization and a
> contact person to verify not only its existence, but its officers, rules, >
and points or records keeping system. 

Again, quoted from Bill: " >
>  here > is a small local club in far East Texas that puts on its on
events.> It> > > was started last year by people who became disenchanted
with AERC due to> > the> > treatment of the "commoners" by the some of the
upper echelon in > this> region> > of AERC. I found out about it from a
friend of ours that we > where having> > breakfast with the weekend after
the first event that I did > not get to> > attend. This lady is one of the
founders of the club, she was > a career> Limit> > Distance rider who was
milage champ a few years ago. > Their events arerun> > under the same rules
that AERC has in place with a  > few variations. " This person's name and
number could make her one of the 6 > people who verify the existence of the 2
out of 3 events in which Bill and > his horse performed so well. >
>
> Let me say I congratulate Bill on these outstanding achievements and will 
gladly let ti donate his win money from me to Bill's medical expenses if we >
see this "adequate proof." In the event that Bill has been enjoying some fun >
on the internet and these things did not occur, I will gladly pocket my >
winnings, knowing that I have helped some novice endurance riders avoid >
misinformation. I might even donate some to a college student and to AERC >
International.
>
> As a known horse breeder and equine vet practitioner, Dr. Heidi Smith can
hold the > money, and view the records and witness information. She can talk
to > witnesses if she is not satisfied with the printed documentation. >
>
> To reiterate: > Providing date and location of 2 events and identity of 6
people, > specifically including ride management and ride vet, who can
verify Bill's / > Smokey's performance --- 3 people at two different events.
> > Courthouse/tax records of farm ownership & location so training trail
could > be verified.
 > > Name and number of the Limited distance   champion
founder of the other club > who put rides on the specified dates. She can be
one of the 6 people above. > Name of the club and specifics regarding its
organization. This would be > assurance that the event was not a one rider
activity.
>
> This sounds simple enough ti-----Like you said, "Let's get it on!"
>
> I have forwarded by wire my money to Heidi in a trust account----waiting
for > ti's matching funds. I believe we need to confine this to some sort of
time > frame for production of the wager money, for the production of the
written > documentation and production of any other evidence. Heidi needs a
time for > the investigation of event locations, witness accounts, and
forwarding of > any pertinent records.

> Let's say June 5 for the wiring of ti's funds, June 15 for postmark of >
written documentation forwarded to Heidi and courtesy copies should be >
provided to both bettors. July 4 seems appropriate for the conclusion to be >
published on line with the awarding of funds to occur within the next 3 >
business days.
>
> Agreeable ti? Put your money where your mouth is.
>
> Cliff Rutherford
>>>>

> -----Original Message-----> From: Tivers@aol.com > Sent: Friday, May 25,
2001 12:02 PM
> To: GrandPaws@cs.com; ribbitttreefrog@yahoo.com; OasisArab@aol.com;>
ridecamp@endurance.net> Subject: Bet's on!
>
>
> Cliff,> > Excelent. > > By separate emial I am sending you scanned copies of
vet cards  > for three of  > Bill's 4 rides.  The fourth ride, Bill came in
with a broken arm  > and broken  > knee. He's still recovering from surgery on
the knee. Don't know what  > documentation Bill has from that ride, but
information thus far  > is that he  > initially was disqualified, but now has
a completion ( he was  > first over the  > line)--we'll see what he has from
that one.  >  > It was also suggested that the whole  thing was a gigantic
hoax,  > including the  > accidents, etc. I'm sure Bill can document his
surgery. Maybe he has a
> picture of the rolled trailer from the first accident. Would  > guess that
he > has insurance documentation.
>
> Tell me what else you need and we can both send a check for $1000 > to
Bill.  > He can, in turn, scan both checks and you and I will be satisfied
> that each > has kept his word. You are a ture sportsman, Cliff. > > As far
as names are concerned, Bill would prefer not to expose > the names of >
others participating in the rides to Ridecamp, for obvious > reasons. But I am
> sure that he will provide you with information that will satisfy you >
privately, and then you can express that satisfaction to Ridecamp while >
avoiding punishment of the people involved in those rides.> > Tom Ivers,
President> Equine Racing Systems, Inc.>  ERS Home Page > > To sign up for the
horsescience mailing list:>  
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/horsescience
>