Re: DEPRESSED GELDING

[RQuestarabians@aol.com]

In a message dated 09/13/2000 2:07:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tracey@tbt.co.za writes:

<< Dear Robyn,
 
 >O.K. there are some training issues to be resolved.>
 
 
 Oh, God, I sense a dissertation looming about the wonders of natural
 horsemanship.  Just promise me you're not into the birdie theory.

Tracey, what exactly is that supposed to mean?
 
 
 >>I had a gelding exactly  like this.>>
 
 
 Bet he wasn't as handsome.

What kind of a low blow is that . . Your ego and sarcarsim is really 
annoying! I simply stated that I have a gelding that was also very 
aggressive, and I understand what you are going threw. I thought I was doing 
the kind thing by offering you advice on what has worked for me. After all , 
you wanted advice right? I guess that you just cannot help people that do not 
want to be helped. You are one of them. I am sorry I wasted my time!
 
 
 >>He would literally try to kill my other gelding when turned out with the
 mares. It was a SERIOUS PROBLEM. In his first endurance rides he would try
 and charge at any other horses that got in his space. That did not last very
 long though. You have to do whatever you can, growl at them, whatever it
 takes, to get their attention on YOU. He needs to learn that this is not
 acceptable behavior anytime under saddle. It is dangerous for you!>>
 
 No, it is not dangerous for me, because when I'm on his back I am in
 control.  It is dangerous for the pillocks on their pretty ponies who say
 "just let them say hello, he'll be fine" as they thrust their mounts faces
 into Toc's and then scream in disgust when he rips their lip open.

He is obviously very dangerous for you and other people. Doesn't sound like 
you have control to me, if you say as quoted above. . . "as they thrust their 
mounts faces into Toc's and them scream in disgust when he rips their lip 
open." You have a problem lady, and  just don't get it yet, and probably 
won't until unfortunately you or someone else gets seriously HURT!!!!!
 
 
  
 >>I suggest doing a lot of ground work if you have a hard time convincing
 your horse under saddle.   If you don't have his attention on the ground you
 aren't going to have it under saddle. Also, have a buddy help you work other
 horses around him.>>
 
 
 He is always schooled around other horses.  I used to stable at a very
 competitive yard, when there were up to eight horses in the ring at a time.
 I can get him to focus on me.  At shows, it is a bit harder because of the
 aforementioned pillocks.
 
 My main objective here was to make it more pleasant to ride out - I can't
 ever really relax as he will lash out with a foot / teeth - and to enable me
 to paddock my two geldings together.  

And you don't see that there is something seriously wrong with this picture?

The dP has worked, in this regard.  I
 was worried that it might have caused his depression, but the blood tests
 have indicated that it has not, that he has probably been fighting an
 unsymptomatic, low-grade virus.

That is a cop out. You just prefer the easy way out.
 
 
 >>There are a lot of great natural horsemanship/ behaviorist trainers out
 there like Harry Whitney, Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt . . . >>
 
 Damn.  I hate it when this happens. 

Again, your sarcasim is really annoying !!! Maybe someday you'll learn that 
ignorance is bliss.
 
 >>As far as the (pasture?) situation with other horses   . . . here is the
 solution that worked for me. . . Just realize that nothing you do will
 change the personality of your gelding, and there are no training methods
 that will carry over how he behaves in the pasture when you are not around
 to intervene.>>
 
 
 The dP HAS done exactly that.

Then why were you asking for advice? You are obviously only interested in 
temporarily solving your horse's problem, and have a grudge for some reason 
against training your horse. I feel sorry for the horse.
 
 
 >>What I did is I temporarily removed the mares from the equation. I found a
 friend that would keep the mares for a few weeks. After a few days, my
 gelding  realized that the mares were gone and calmed down.>>
 
 I don't have any mares.  Unless you count me.

Doesn't matter if they are mares, geldings, or stallions, it is the same 
approach.
 
 
 >>At that time, I gradually began reintroducing my other gelding. Horses are
 extremely social
 animals and crave companionship.>>
 
 Not Toc.  He once forced me to trek home alone from a trail ride, because he
 didn't like the path the other twenty horses had taken, and preferred the
 other one, which he was quite happy to toodle along on his own.  He likes to
 be able to SEE other horses, but he has "issues" with personal space.
 
 
 >>>Only if and when they have formed a successful bond should you try
 bringing the mares back, and not in a time when any of them are in season!>>
 
 The problem is that Toc just does not bond with other horses.  He never has.
 Given a choice between playing with them in the paddock or falling asleep
 with his nose in my lap, he'll pick the lap.  He's bonded with me and
 decided that I'm his pasture-buddy, and that's all there is to it.

It is great that you and you horse have such a deep bond. I think we all 
strive toward that goal. If he is very happy being alone, and is a danger to 
other horses then why don't you keep him seperated from the other horses by 
keeping him in his own  paddock? 
 
 >>What you need to understand is that the horse's brain that needs to be
 trained. A drug is only masking the problem. I personally do not believe in
 drugs to solve my problems. I am sorry, I just feel very strongly about
 that.   Unfortunately, that is the first thing that a lot of  vets push when
 the horse has a problem.  > >
 
 
 I don't like going the drug route either, but I've had this horse for 4 1/2
 years, and the longer I've had him and the more I've bonded with him, the
 worse he has got towards other horses.  I didn't immediately opt for the
 needle, but having watched him take chunks out of PG at every opportunity, I
 thought I owed it to PG to do something.

Again, why don't you just take the common sense approach. If he is happy 
being stabled in his own paddock why don't you opt for that choice? You say 
you owe it to PG to do something.
 
 
 >>Why would you want to chance it. ALL drugs have potential side effects and
 can damage the liver among other things. It's been my experience with drugs
 that a lot of times you aim to solve 1 problem and then it in turn creates 5
 or 10 OTHER problems. I am sure we have some good vets like Heidi out there
 on this forum that can help you out here.  Again, you have to go back to
 square one and ask yourself what really is this horse's problem? It is his
 "brain" that needs to be trained.> >
 
 
 I think I've answered your question, and no disrespect to Heidi, but my vet
 has been treating my horse for almost five years, since before I got him,
 and knows what I have to deal with.  He also knows that I hate using drugs,
 and was loathe to suggest the dP as a result.  However, it has curbed Toc's
 aggression.

But it obviously has not solved your problems! When the DP wears off you 
still have a problem, and it is unfortunate that you do not see it that way.
 
 
 As far as "brain" training is concerned, my horse is a very bright,
 independent individual, at whom more than one instructor (some riding at top
 level) have thrown their arms up in despair, because he just doesn't abide
 by any rules.  I love him because of that, and have managed, despite that
 fact, to turn him into a wonderful ride, who will safely let kids climb on
 board or underneath him, and once stopped dead on the trail because a ginger
 kitten was frozen between his front legs (he stood like a rock while I
 climbed off and moved the cat).  I don't think there is any more "brain"
 training I can do, and honestly believe that it won't help as the more I
 work with him, the closer we bond and the more aggressive he is towards
 other horses.  I suppose I could go for the old "establish Alpha status"
 approach, but it's not in my nature, and I think that, by dominating him to
 such a degree, I would be altering his personality as effectively as the dP.

I never suggested that your horse was not "bright". It is great that he is so 
connected with humans and you. But there is one thing you have to keep in 
mind. How are you going to live with yourself if a child is on his back, and 
lets say another horse gets loose, or whatever, and Toc does not know how to 
handle it? You say that you are in control but from previous statements in 
the post you are definately NOT in control. You are worried about 
establishing "Alpha status" with the horse because you are afraid that it 
will change his personality. That is like a parent saying to their child "It 
is OK to hit mommy"and the parent never disciplining the child for fear that 
the child may grow up to resent them. Do you realize how foolish you sound? 
Is it really OK if your horse decides to take a chunk out of you, or lash out 
at you one day? Or maybe he does it unintentionally , you just happen to be 
the victim in the middle of a horsefight.  Don't think for a minute that it 
will never happen. You don't have the love affair going with you horse quite 
like you think you do. There is a way, if you ever care to open your mind, of 
teaching the horse to respect you as the "alpha horse" or whatever you care 
to call it. It is a simple respect that the horse learns just like he learns 
establishing hierachy with other horses. Horses are very comfortable and 
PREFER knowing where they stand in the pecking order. It is no different with 
your horse and you. And no, sometimes horses are not very nice to each other 
when establishing this pecking order. It does not change their personality. 
Don't get me wrong I am not suggesting violence by any means. But your horse 
is a lot more happier knowing where he stands with you.  
 
 
 Thank you for your insight.  It was thought-provoking, and your methods may
 be suitable for someone else on the list battling with similar problems.  My
 circumstances are different, however.

How are they different? What you might want to do is take off the blinders, 
and really see what is going on.

Robyn
 
 
 Hlala Gahle,
 Tracey
 '
 
  >>