Re: RC: Sigh! (was Arabian Stallion in IL)

[Bette Lamore <woa@stormnet.com>]

Hi Kat
I think form the number of responses re: Secretariat we can infer that
the stallion had received an unfair bad rap; however, that was hardly
the point of the example and you still proved my point. Not ALL of his
get were race winners and it seems to be the general consensus that he
was a better broodmare sire--- that is the point. You cannot entirely
predict future get from a stallion in the first place---- but you can
increase the odds of getting a good offspring if you know that the sire
has good conformation and that he has get with athletic ability. The
only way to know whether a sire is prepotent with his conformation and
athletic ability is to look at what he has produced. If you happen to
have a mare standing around and it would cost you very little to breed
and to raise the foal for 4-5 years to find out (and don't mind keeping
or can sell/give away one who does not, then it might be worth the
experimentation. You cannot go entirely by the stallion's bloodlines---
not all *Bask's offspring were like their "dad". Although the proportion
of athletic offspring was high (you can see the wonderful hock action
that is pretty dominant) not all of those sons passed that trait on to
their offspring, hence, not judging a stallion by his sire's ability to
produce. Case in point, although Port Bask was English Pleasure, he was
known for producing great broodmares, who largely traveled Western
Pleasure themselves (I know, I have one--- and her son has great hock
action-- but no English Pleasure pop). On the other hand, you have many
stallions who have surpassed their sires--- combinations with the
mare--- pulling in from generations back. Then the trick is to see
whether this stallion passes on these traits to his future generations.
That takes many breedings to determine--- and time. That is why stud
fees for the better known stallions are higher than the "newbies"-- the
breeder has already put in the $$$ for the experimental stage and raised
and probably "given away" more than they'd like to admit at the start of
their program.  That was a whole point of my comments and being an
ex-breeder yourself, I am sure (or at least I would imagine) you would
agree. It is called "paying one's dues".
Bette

"guest@endurance.net" wrote:
> 
> K S SWIGART   katswig@earthlink.net
> 
> Bette Lamore said:
> 
> > Thanks, Dawn
> > You're right!
> > Bette
> >
> > RDCARRIE@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> <<(what WAS the name of that stallion
> >> who won the Triple Crown and whose get never did squat, Tom???)>>
> >>
> >> I think you're thinking of Secretariat...
> >>
> >> Dawn in Texas (delurking again...)
> 
> No, you're not right. Despite general impressions to the contrary
> (as evidenced by the statements above), Secretariat was NOT an
> ineffective sire (and I am not talking about his success as a
> broodmare sire either), and it is TOTALLY inaccurate to say that
> "his babies didn't do squat" on the track.  He was the sire of 3
> champions, one was Horse of the Year, and since they have only
> named one of those a year for the last 30 years, this puts him
> in pretty rare company as a sire, i.e. of the hundreds of
> thousands of TB sires in the last 30 years only 23 of them have
> sired a Horse of the Year (Secretariat, Forego, John Henry,
> Affirmed, and Cigar were Horse of the Year more than once).
> He has over $30 million in progeny earnings; more than 50% of
> his foals were winners and 9% were stakes winners.  His sire
> index was ~3.5 (which means his babies won 3 1/2 times as much
> money on the track as the average stallion in the same foal
> crops).  By any measure he was an extremely successful sire
> of race horses (not just broodmare sire).  Was he ever at the
> top of the General Sire rankings?  No.  Was he a great of a
> sire as his own sire (Bold Ruler) was? No...but then, Bold
> Ruler was the sire of Secretariat and the number of stallions
> that have sired horses like Secretariat can be counted on your
> hands.
> 
> The reason that there is a prevailing impression that Secretariat
> was an unsuccessful sire is that expectations were SO high...and
> his first baby was a dud.  The people who persist in this notion
> have never bothered to look at the statistics.
> 
> What, you say, does this have to do with endurance?
> 
> I mention it only because I have the statistics available to
> refute the general impressions about Secretariat's success as
> a sire.  The Jockey Club and all the other TB registries actually
> keep track of this kind of thing (that is, after all, why they
> even exist).  I have access to progeny earnings, percentage of
> runners, percentage of winners, etc. because there exists very
> effective database with all this information in it that is
> published weekly, annually, is available historically from the
> earliest years of racing and breeding of Thoroughbreds, and (for
> a price) is available on line.
> 
> Until people actually have a way of quantifying success, keeping
> track of performances AND pedigree, knowing which sires (and
> dams) are the producers of successful endurance horses will be
> limited by "general impressions" which, as we have seen in the
> case of Secretariat, can be WAAAAAY off the mark.
> 
> Good breeders will evaluate the outcome of their own breeding
> decisions and, hopefully, adjust their breeding programs appropriately.
> Really serious breeders will try to keep track of other successful
> breeding pairings and incorporate that information into their own
> breeding programs.  Everybody else will just rattle off the names
> of famous horses that they recognize and figure that since they
> recognize them, they must be good producers (which may or may
> not be true).  Until somebody takes the time and effort to actually
> track both pedigree and performance (of all of a horse's progeny,
> not just the ones that we take notice of at rides) of endurance
> horses, linking pedigree to performance will be nothing more than
> general impressions...which can be wildly inaccurate.
> 
> kat
> Orange County, Calif.
> 
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-- 
Bette Lamore
Whispering Oaks Arabians, Home of 16.2hh TLA Halynov
(yes, REALLY!)
http://www.arabiansporthorse.com