RC: Fwd: RC: Stallion behavior

[Bette Lamore <woa@stormnet.com>]

Hi Nancy
Well I'm obviously in the wrong end of the horse business!
$18,000????!!!!
I can go back to college for that and learn how to outsmart my computer.
Bette

Nancy DuPont wrote:
> 
> This was well said and I agree totally.  Too bad so many people are
> addicted to the John Lyons seminars and methods.  He charges $18,000 for
> his full course. Hmmmmm.
> 
> At 11:01 AM 1/17/00 -0500, SandyDSA@aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 1/16/00 9:48:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> >fasterhorses@gilanet.com writes:
> >
> ><< Call me an ass, call me a weenie for not believeing in using pain as an
> >  educational method for any being, but don't call me anything other than one
> >  who cares.  Lif >>
> >I am with you, Lif. We would never dream of treating our horses with such
> >disrespect and humiliation, not to mention the mental anguish. In 23 years,
> >we have never had to raise a whip to a horse for compliance. Funny, too, a
> >lot of people think "John Lyons = humane, gentle, "NATURAL" horsemanship".
> >Hmmm. While there are a number of good things about it - we have been doing
> >"natural Horse manship for 23 years - now it has a name, a book, etc. - it is
> >not inherently good or true just because he said it or espouses it.
> >s
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> >Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:55:43 -0700
> >To: ridecamp@endurance.net
> >From: Lif Strand <fasterhorses@gilanet.com>
> >In-Reply-To: <28.ecc686.25b39161@aol.com>
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> >Subject: RC:   Stallion behavior
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> >
> >At 02:25 PM 1/16/00 , MTo9831816@aol.com wrote:
> >>I took a tip from John Lyons with my stud who is very well behaved...wants to
> >>be mouthy but knows better.... when he would try to get mouthy, he must think
> >>he is going to die... John Lyons says you can kill him for 3 seconds with a
> >>whip below the knees...I scream hollar and whip then I put the whip down and
> >>admit him back into the herd (pet him) and it has worked like a charm
> >
> >Hey - I'm up for a fight and here's why:
> >
> >Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with this approach.  Stallions
> >fight by (among other approaches) trying to bite/break the legs below the
> >knees (this is from my husband's personal observation of wild stallions
> >fighting in Nevada).  In the wild, a horse with one leg that isn't 100%
> >functional is basically a dead horse.
> >
> >When you whip a stallion (or any horse) below the knees (or any animal, or
> >any human, anywhere), I believe you are doing these things:
> >1)  You are whipping the horse.  Sorry, I do not find any justification
> >ever for whipping any animal for any number of seconds below any joint.  I
> >strongly believe that if force is necessary for a person to "train" then
> >that person should not be training.
> >2)  You are challenging and because you no doubt have the horse in a
> >position where it cannot defend itself (haltered, unable to flee), you are
> >not even remotely being fair.  A horse that is mouthing so much may well
> >be sending a message that it is uncomfortable/fearful.  Whipping as a
> >response is not the same as understanding, and is not even remotely the
> >same as addressing the issue, even if you think you are fixing the problem.
> >3)  John Lyons may have said it but I am not sure everyone understands it
> >- you are sending the message that you will kill the horse, that for 3
> >seconds you want the horse to believe it will die.  Above and beyond the
> >shamefulness of wanting to give any living being that impression, I say
> >this:  Even a mouse, when pushed too far, will fight for it's life (and I
> >can tell you of more than one instance of horses, dogs, etc. turning on
> >people who beat/whip them).  When you push a stallion - or any horse -
> >with such force, at what point will it flip into fight for it's life mode
> >- especially since this conveniently no-evidence place for whipping (show
> >trainers do it all the time because it doesn't raise welts) is a
> >vulnerability point (see my opening paragraph and my next point).  And if
> >that happens, how could one blame the horse, who was not the aggressor
> >after all - all the horse was doing was chewing on a few things because of...?
> >4)  This is primal stuff.  Stallions exist to defend/protect , besides to
> >procreate.  When dealing with a stud, it's not like dealing with geldings,
> >mares.  Don't push primal buttons by becoming a
> >challenger.   Domestication is a veneer that is very thin.  Don't start
> >something you are bound to loose or that will be irrepairable.  Use force
> >as an solution to a problem with a stallion and you might get force as an
> >answer - big time. Or, perhaps worse in the long run, your answer might be
> >behavioral problems in the future that are way worse.
> >5)  By using such a major response to a problem behavior, you draw
> >attention to it, you make it into a big deal.  The "pin in the hand"
> >method, even the quick slap, is more than enough.  On the third hand, a
> >total attention to the situation approach, which means going into *why*
> >the behavior is occuring, and dealing with that, would be the best of all
> >solutions.
> >
> >By the way, whipping to fix problems is the kind of stuff that is banned
> >by the Geneva Convention if done by humans to humans.  It is called
> >torture.  Convincing a being you are going to kill it - for even 3 seconds
> >- as a way of getting compliance is simply that:  Torture.  Why is it OK
> >to do it to horses?
> >
> >If you rely on pain to teach, you are not  educating.  I am sorry if this
> >is harsh, but it's the facts.  Forced compliance is not the same as
> >voluntary.  I know that there are lots of people out there who don't see
> >the difference, but I do ask you to consider that quality does count when
> >relating to an animal that is supposedly going to be your partner on the
> >endurance trail.  [If you want a dependable animal and your training
> >methods are based on fear, and you get into a situation that is more
> >fearful than the fear you have applied, then you are in a whole pile of
> >trouble.  Trust is a two way street.  [Paul's comment]]
> >
> >I do not believe that force/pain is a kind of educational method I
> >personally want to be connected with any more.  I have been there and done
> >that.  I am not proud of that approach. I will never repeat it.  It is not
> >necessary.
> >
> >Everyone does what they think is right  - and I am not saying that my
> >methods are the only right way.  But I am saying that if it's OK to whip a
> >horse for one reason, then why wouldn't it be OK to apply pain to any
> >creature to get it to do what you want?
> >
> >Call me an ass, call me a weenie for not believeing in using pain as an
> >educational method for any being, but don't call me anything other than
> >one who cares.  Lif
> >
> >
> >____________
> >Lif & Paul Strand   STRAND ENTERPRISES   http://www.fasterhorses.com
> >   Arabian Horses for Distance Riding
> >Internet Research * WebArt * Fine Art
> >Nutrition and alternatives for self-reliant people
> >Quemado, NM  USA
> >
> 
> Nancy DuPont, Executive Director
> Heritage Trails
> 1350 Castle Rock Road
> Walnut Creek, CA 94598
> 
> Our Mission: To preserve and protect trails and answer the question, "Where
> are you going to ride your horses, and where are you going to keep them."
> Telephone (925)937-7661 FAX (925) 943-7431
> 
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-- 
Bette Lamore
Whispering Oaks Arabians, Home of TLA Halynov
http://www.stormnet.com/~woa
I've learned that life is like a roll of toilet paper, the closer it
gets to the end, the faster it goes. Smell the roses!


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