Re: RC: carbonates/rocks in elytes?

[Roger Rittenhouse <roger@vmaxept.com>]

Hello Teresa, and all
      The below issues were stated by me a few years ago. I have
      choose to stay out of this - for a number of reasons .. mostly
      due to all the flak I received from RC and the experts. I have
      discussed this with Susan just last week in relation to the XP
      riders doing the right thing in heat and humidity.

      When I first received a tub of the NEW elytes developed by Dr
      Jeannie Waldron, to use in place of my homemade mix-- same
      recipe as
      many are still using today - I asked WHY,
      WHY the HIGHER cost - WHY the different ingredients?

      She explained the water soluble issues I quotes before and herein
      again.
      I then called the PhD Chemist who actually developed the
      formula. We talked CHEM 101 for about an hour.
      I also dug out the papers from DR DANE FRAZIER   lectures on the
      internal working of the elytes. Internal/external fluid balances
      and how all these IONS get from one place to another.
      
      The bottom line was IF you give a solution of electro-lytes,
      they MUST be in IONIC - electrical form - all at the SAME TIME
      in the CORRECT proportions ...
       else the body (GI tract) will
      draw on the external fluids to pull out the IONS that are
      missing to make the solution balanced in the gut. This will then
      cause the horse to go deeper into ion depletion and make the
      problem worse.
       I have done that to my wife's horse during the OD
      100 of '77. She dosed with my homemade mix - after the horse
      drank. He quit going. She walked in to the next VC-  90 miles and pulled.
      He drank about a bucket of water then. About 1/2 and hour later
      he came out of the problem, when the vet checked him over he was
      fine. I did this again in the OD100 of '90 to my horse- almost
      the same thing. Dosed heavy with the homemade rock mix late in the
      ride and she quit until she drank and re-balanced. We pulled.
      From then on I used the ENDURA-LYTES product.

      If you run a titration test on the homemade ROCK mixes they FAIL
      to give the correct levels of CA++ and Mg++.
      The horse tries to balance this mix of the correct available IONS from
      Na+ Ka+ Cl-  , he will take Ca++ and Mg++ from his internal reserves. He is going to be
      short of the CA++ ions, since I used the slow to absorb form
      all day.
      This makes him LOWER internally of the Ca ion, thus we get thumps
      and loss of muscle contractions, (horse stops), and reduced nerve
      functions.

      When I sold the new electrolyte called ENDURA-LYTE I included a
      paper presented by Dr Waldron - which explained all this.

      I could post this paper to my web page or maybe RC , but I
      think I should ask Dr Waldron first. She clearly states that Ca
      ACETATE (and Mg CITRATE) is why this electrolyte works.

      The elytes made with Ca Carbonate and Mg Oxide are not correct
      per Dr Waldron and  the Chemist PhD.   They ARE CHEAPER. That is WHY
      these forms are used in many formulas.
      The  water soluble forms cost much more. The difference is from 10
      pnd for $5  to ONE pnd for $5.
      
      MY experience with elyte related problems stopped when I switched
      to the ENDURA-LYTES from Life Science. This recipe is still one
      of the best. However, Dr Waldron believes the formulation requires
      MORE Ca and K.
      MOST of the commercially developed products, for Endurance use WATER SOLUBLE
      ACETATE, ASPIRATES  CITRATES and or SULFATES.

      I have chosen to let this issue ride until now, since it never
      seems to make a difference in the general thinking of riders or
      experts. .. suggest reading the papers written by Dr Dane
      Frazier Dr
      Kathleen Crandel and
      others that were published in EN LONG ago. I also saw some of
      this in Trail Blazer.   Its just Chemistry and the internal
      functions of the living being, horse or human.  While I do not
      have the 'science' background to explain how this all works, I
      sure have the miles over many horses to understand it.

      One comment was made IF you really load up on the Ca Carbonate
      and Mg Oxide, there will be enough of a release of free Ca and Mg
      ions to make it work. Good guess.

      If the homemade stuff works for you  - OR you THINK it does
      since you have not been in trouble, then go with it.  Suggest a
      blood and urine test will prove the horse to be dehydrated and
      exhibit an ion deficiency.
      Refer to DR Gayle Ecker DVM PhD studies. Seems ALL the horses she tested
      are DEFICIENT in most of the ions as well as fluid.

      While the product from Buckeye - Perform and Win is made form the
      correct ingredients, it is too weak per the 'standard' dose.
      e.g 2 - 1 oz scoops. You have to feed at least 5 to 6 scoops to
      get the correct effect for the working endurance horse. This
      will work well for home use and as an add to feed elyte, but I
      would not use it during a race.
      Her studies are what has caused many of us to re-think the way
      we give electrolytes. Give a small amount MORE often. The big
      slug given at the VC can create problems, as we all know.

      Since the Acetate based products create an acid base when in
      solution, I really want to add a neutralizer, thus many mix the
      MALOX product. I use this in-place of water.

      The ONLY commercially developed products I USE and recommend are

      ABC RIDE RITE
      PRO FORMAULA LYTE and NOW
      ENDURA-LYTES Creative Science -Butler Co.
      and a new one I use for day use and travel -
      E-LYTES from J-BAR-D

      There may be others but I have not tested them.
      The correct relationship of the ingredients is important also.
      
      It has been suggested the ABC RIDE RITE does NOT contain a
      correct label. Here it is:
      Ca- 1.5%-2.0%
      P    0.50%
      Na   10.0% -12%
      Mg   1.0%
      K   11.0%     It has been suggested the K and Na should BOTH be
      the same and close to about 10% each.
      Cl    26%
      LIST- Sodium Chloride,Potassium Chloride, Mag Sulfate, Calcium
      Acetate, Calcium Sulfate, Vit-C(EsterC), Citric Acid, Dextrose,
      Amino Acetic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Silicon
      Dioxide(anti caking)
      OK then tell me what's wrong with this label?
      How much dextrose ? no one will tell you that one.

      Next-- LYTE and NOW
      26cc dose
      SALT - NaCl 19- 23%  how much Na?
      Calcium 6.75 - 8.3%
      Potassium  11%
      Mg 3.8%
      Manganese 920ppm
      Iron 1088ppm
      Zinc 144 ppm
      Copper 63 ppm
      Colbalt 9 ppm
      LIST  Water,Potassium Chloride, Salt, Mag Chloride, Calcium
      Chloride, Corn Syrup,Natural Minerals  'chelated' .. and the list of other
      lower level items..

      Seems ok to me but they wont tell you how much Na.

      ENDURALYTES
      Label I have is NOT complete. Does not tell me any percentages
      LIST - NACL,KCl, Ca Acetate, Mg Citrate.
      I happen to have an analysis from the Dr Waldron paper. Listed in
      Mg per OZ
      Na 4968
      K  2652   a bit low ?
      CA 752
      CL 9940
      MG 600
      PLUS the 'base' not specified.
      
       All these do appear to work well

       I cannot find the label for PERF and WIN, I think that has been
       listed before.

       The KER product ENDURA-MAX uses Mg OXIDE.

      IF a product contains Carbonate - Dical -Trical -Oxide or any
      other ion carrier other then one of the water soluble 'tates' I
      wont use it.

      So, there you have my 'rock' soapbox - again...

      Roger

      
Thursday, June 07, 2001, 8:58:30 PM, you wrote:

TVH> OK stomp on me if I'm wrong,  but when I discovered endurance net and
TVH> FAQ section a few (least it seems like only a few) years ago, there was
TVH> this great discussion on e-lytes and the experts were warning endurance
TVH> riders not to buy electrolytes with calcium and/or magnesium in water
TVH> insoluable forms.  Limestone (calcium carbonate) was considered one of
TVH> the insoluble forms.  I dont think any of todays commercial endurance
TVH> e-lyte formulas use carbonates as ca or mag sources, they tend have the
TVH> calcium as a chloride salt, or calcim citrate which are supposed to
TVH> dissolve and be absorbed better, or they get really fancy and they are
TVH> chelated with amino acids (whatever that really means.) n  

TVH> SO whats UP?  Susan is the horsey tummy (excuse the layman term) acid
TVH> enough that the carbonates are dissolved just fine? and fairly quickly
TVH> absorbed into the bloodstream, or they do take a few hours to dissolve,
TVH> but pre-loading and giving often enough takes care of this? Or all these
TVH> horses on homemade e-lytes just getting enough CA and Mag in their ride
TVH> food that they don't need it in their elytes or what?  

TVH> Teresa (today call me confused)


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-- 
 Roger                            mailto:roger@vmaxept.com