Re: RC: Re: Complex Carbohydrate Use

[Tivers@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/15/99 11:35:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
CMKSAGEHIL@aol.com writes:

<< <   Can COMPLEX carbohydrate be stored in horses' (in the form of 
glycogen) 
 (like human athletes), burned AFTER fat stores IF the horse is kept in 
 aerobic ranges?>>
 
 Recent work suggests that fat DOES have some glycogen-sparing effects.  
(Tom, 
 read Valentine, Hintz, and others)>

Are you ready for a cite war? I am. Glycogen sparing under what 
circumstances? Not under elevarted glucose/insulin circumstances.  

 >but actual feeding of fat can be 
 detrimental on race day.  (Tom is accurate in his statement that fat slows 
 gastric emptying, and thereby slows down the gut, rather than maintaining 
 good gut motility.)  What we want on race day is a good fiber fill (and it 
IS 
 accurate to describe cellulose as a complex carbohydrate)>

Whoopps, lets not go crazy here. A tree is a complex carbohydrate. Why 
wouldn't we attemt to stoke up the furnace with a nice cedar chip meal? For 
the same reason we don't want to rely on cellulose--it's a terribly 
inefficient energy source.

> so that there is 
 VFA production going on in a steady fashion.  VFA's are NOT the same thing 
as 
 triglycerides or "fat." >

And they're NOT the same as glucose/glycogen. Again, how many pounds of hay 
will deliver VFAs in such abundance that they will overcome the benefits of 
elevated blood glucose? Not ten tons.
 
 <<     It is my understanding that protein is not stored, and would we want 
 it to be?>>
 
 Well, I guess there are a couple of ways to look at that.  Muscle is a huge 
 "protein store" but we don't want to dip into it as an energy source as 
there 
 are some high metabolic prices to pay for that.>

Similar to the prices of fat.

>  Aside from that, no, protein 
 is not stored.  It can be broken down into constituents which can fuel the 
 Krebs cycle, but is not a really "choice" energy source there, either.>

Except for a number of instantly available amino acids which break down to 
glucose.
 
   <<   And, yes, I do understand that human and horse athletes are not the 
 same, but I believe some correlations are relevant when discussing aerobic 
 endurance endeavors.>>
 
 Yes, some correlations are relevant.  Muscle physiology, as Tom points out, 
 is pretty much the same.  But keep in mind that the muscle is burning ATP 
 from the Krebs cycle, NOT carbs.  ALL sources of energy have to go through 
 the Krebs cycle first in order to make ATP to fuel muscles.>

Not so, but a minor point.

>  And horses' 
 digestive physiology DOES differ from humans in that they can convert 
 cellulose to useable VFA's and we cannot.  Their regulation of carbs is 
 "tuned" to the fact that that process is supposed to be going on 
concurrently 
 with any carb use.>

Who says? IV glucose will keep the muscle and vital functions going even if 
the gut is entirely cut off from the blood stream. Not so the other way 
around.

>  All I'm trying to point out here is that the carbs are 
 not the whole picture in the horse.>

You keep coming back to that statement, but your argument goes far beyond it. 
Again, all we're talking about here is carbohydrate supplementation during a 
ride as an ergogenic aid. It works. It's real. It's no big deal. The sky is 
not falling.  
 
 << PS:  Proper carbo loading works in human endurance endeavors, but I 
believe
  that periodic injections of simple carbohydrate (sugar) during said 
 endeavors to enhance endurance is like starting a fire with gasoline, yeah, 
 it catches immediately, but it doesn't last long, and, in some cases, can 
 actually serve as a catalyst to quicken the expenditure of remaining 
glycogen 
 stores.  (Am I off in left field in these opinions?)>>
 
 No, I don't think you are off in left field at all with that, Frank.  And in 
 fact, that's why a horse that is attuned to making maximum use of his VFA's 
 does NOT deplete his glycogen as quickly, and does not hit the wall, as did 
 the horses that prompted this discussion.>

Whoops, cite please. VFAs could have saved the day? Original poster, did you 
take away the hay or cedar chips for four days leading up to the ride? My 
guess is that you did not, and that your horse had plenty of opportunity to 
be awash with VFAs at the time he crashed. In fact, if blood samples were 
taken at the time, you'd verylikely see elevated mobilization of fats and 
fatty acids. To no avail.  
 
> Heidi
       
   >>

ti


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