Re: RC: Bitless Bridles

[Jasmine Cave <toppere@siu.edu>]

>Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 13:09:48 -0700
>To: ruthb@tdsi.net
>From: Jasmine Cave <toppere@siu.edu>
>Subject: Re: RC:  Bitless Bridles
>
>Mandy-
>It sounds like you are definatly on the right track since mandy is getting
all slobbery and developing a top line and because of this it sounds like
you made an great bit choice. If she is really heavy you could switch to a
thinner mouthpiece in the same bit to encourage her to carry herself
instead of leaning.Just stay with the same bit brand and all.Also if she is
pushy don't be afraid to push back, just lighten when she does.Instead of
turn on the forehand try turn on the haunches. A turn on the forehand
encourages the horse to get heavy on the forhand and to move the haunches
in a circle. You want to shift the weight to the haunches and move the
forehand. The turn on the haunches will take a bit longer to teach your
horse since she will try to keep her weight on the forehand which will be
impossible to do in this movement. If her neck comes out low from her
shoulder she will want to carry her head low. It is possible to raise her
head but it will take time. Also when you feel that you are loosing her
back end you could stop and back her up. As long as you keep her front end
in frame, you will need a bit of leg, she will bring her hinquarters under
her in a few steps.I don't think you are asking to much, just maybe to
soon. Keep trying. Another really good thing to do is long rein (like
lunging, you stand in center and horse goes around you). Go to the hardware
store and buy 50 ft. of a heavy rope(5/8) and a couple of snaps. Tie the
snaps to each end and you have a great set of long reins at a fraction of
the price you could but them at. Take a piece of bailing twine and tie your
stirrups together under her belly. Run one end through the stirrup and to
her bit. Put the other end over the saddle than through the stirrup on that
side and to the bit. For the first time it can be helpful if someone hold
your horse. Get the reins in your hand the way you would if you were riding
and right before you ask her to move push the rein off you saddle and
behind your horse. She may get spoked by the rope on her back legs and try
to run. This is O.K. just talk to her untill she quiets and keep her
moving. Because you have nice heavy, round braid long reins unlike the
light weight web that is sold, you can drop the lines if needed without
fear of tangling mandy in them. When she quiets just pick them up as she
goes around and begin to take contact. Most horses don't freak out like
that, but some do. All of the horses I have seen really like it once they
adjust. This is a great tool to get your horse to bend, the line behind the
legs prevent the horse from getting her legs behind her. The inside rein
will be used to ask her to flex. This is also good for horses that fall
into the center on ordinary lunge lines because you can use the outside
rein to keep them out. It is a great thing to know how to do.
>Dustee-
>I would continue to use the bit you have but add more ring work and I
would definatly long rein this horse to encourage him to use the ring of
muscles(streaching and flexing of the neck which causes the back to raise
which affects his abdominal muscles, they will contract and lift, and he
will bring his legs under himself). If you still need a bit more control
>you could try a kimberwick that is double jointed, but you would have curb
control only. Or you could go with a mullen or double jointed pelham then
you could use the snaffle rein except when he tries to pick up the pace
than use the curb rein. The curb would also encourage flexion.
>jasmine
>At 03:03 PM 6/5/99 -0500, Ruth Bourgeois wrote:
>>Jasmine Cave wrote:
>>> 
>>> A bosal teaches the horse to move away from pressure, so if you use the
>>> left rein the horse will want to go right. It does not sound like this is
>>> what you really want. It does teach a horse to go light, but you must make
>>> sure that it fits correctly and they can be very expensive.
>>>     How does your horse move when riden with the snaffle, any bend in the
>>> neck at all or is she pushing against you. If she is pushy is it pushing
>>> down toward the ground or up toward the sky and does she push out with her
>>> nose while doing this? If you are pushy back are you able to get her in
the
>>> bridle? Does she have a dry mouth are does she get slobbery during
>>> dressage? What size bit does she use? How is she different in her behavior
>>> and movement when riden with a mechanical hack or sidepull? What
>>> mouthpiece(joints,metal type) do you use? How do you ride the
horse(lots of
>>> contact, little contact, lots of leg, little leg)? If you could be more
>>> descriptive with both horses that would help a lot.
>>> jasmine
>>
>>Wow... lots of details, but I'll try to be accurate enough so you can
>>understand better.
>>
>>Mandy, the "heavy on the forehand" mare - 
>>She's about 15 hands, 3/4 Arab, 1/4 welsh pony, stocky built. I use a
>>German KK (I think it's an aurigan) french loose ring snaffle, size 5
>>1/8. It's about medium weight, not real thick but not as thin as the one
>>I use on Dustee, the gelding. When I do work her and concentrate on
>>using my hands properly and having contact with her mouth, she will get
>>real slobbery. Before I switched to this bit (on advise from a good
>>trainer), she was rather resistent and would pull and push against me a
>>lot. Now she isn't resistant to speak of (with the help of Harry Whitney
>>lessons, she learned to flex at the poll and I learned not to just pull
>>on her). She will flex and bend pretty good, but it seems like she wants
>>to carry her head too low. I know with training level dressage that it
>>is desireable to have the horse learn to stretch down and they tend to
>>carry their head a bit low as their back muscles develop. She's good at
>>stretching down after a workout of trotting and exercises. She doesn't
>>try to stick her nose out or up, it just seems that she falls foreward
>>too much and that she isn't getting her hind end under her properly.
>>Somewhat like a western pleasure quarter horse with a downhill build.
>>She actually isn't built that much downhill, so I don't feel that her
>>conformation is extreme to the point of where that is interfering with
>>her ability to work off her hindquarters. Maybe I'm expecting too much,
>>but she has had fairly consistent work (not a lot, but usually at least
>>once per week, doing walk/trot/circles, bending, turn on the forehand,
>>occasional work over cavaletties, some cantering) for the past few
>>years. I haven't been able to take very many lessons with her, just a
>>few each year, and I'm not working her very hard, so maybe she is doing
>>ok for the time/training that I've put into her. 
>>
>>I know I must be doing something right, and making progress, correctly,
>>cuz her topline is much better than it was when she was younger. When I
>>first started riding her when she was five, she looked mutton-withered.
>>Now she has respectable looking withers and a nice strong topline.
>>
>>When I ride, I don't use a lot of leg or heavy contact. I keep my legs
>>in place, on her, just enough so that they are in place for giving cues
>>and with enough "feel" so that if she were to spook, I'd feel it before
>>it actually happened. I've been working on centered riding and balance,
>>and don't grip or use a lot of muscle when I ride. My hands and legs are
>>pretty steady. I've had dressage judges comment that I have "tactful
>>hands", "kind hands". My instructor says too kind - I need to establish
>>more contact! That's where my confusion comes in - when I establish more
>>contact, it seems like that's when Mandy wants to pull downward more and
>>it feels like she gets to lugging on me, hanging on the bit. Then I
>>squeeze and release, asking her to flex and give, which she tries to do.
>>But it just seems like she's not light and graceful and I don't know if
>>she ever will be.
>>
>>When I ride Mandy with the sidepull or Arabian "S" hackamore, she goes
>>about the same, just carries her head low, down towards her knees.
>>She'll pick it up and dance around if something scary gets her
>>attention, but for the most part, she's pretty laid back and doesn't
>>carry her head high at all. She'll carry her head the same way in a
>>snaffle if I give her a long loose rein. If she does get excited or
>>chargy in the hackamore, and I pull on the reins to slow her down,
>>she'll push against me (ewe-neck type pulling) and doesn't flex at the
>>poll, just ignores me more. With the bit, I can use one rein to ask her
>>to "give" and hold the other steady so we don't get in a pulling match.
>>She's a very strong willed mare, so we've had our share of battles, but
>>she is pretty well trained, very responsive and usually (!) obedient.
>>
>>Dustee, on the other hand, is just the opposite in how he moves (even
>>goes better to one direction than Mandy does, which disproves the theory
>>that I must ride lop-sided or that I am better one way than the other!).
>>He is out of the same mare, but different sire and built totally
>>different - taller, leggier, less heavily muscled (more the endurance
>>type), balanced, graceful, incredibly smooth moving, like riding a
>>cadallac! I didn't begin training/riding him much till he was nearly six
>>years old and never did much in the way of lessons or arena work with
>>him. He just picked up everything easier than Mandy, tho he's not as
>>responsive to the flexing/bending. But we're working on it, and I've
>>started doing some arena work with him and he's learning to carry his
>>head lower and start rounding and using his back nicely. He definitely
>>is not heavy on the forehand! The problem I have with him when I ride
>>him, especially with the bit (I use a french snaffle on him, too, a
>>loose ring, not a German KK but a cheaper one, which is a bit thinner
>>and seems to fit his mouth better), is that he just plain ignores me
>>sometimes when I ask him to slow down or stop. It's like he gets to
>>lollygagging and I have to get his attention, or he doesn't think I
>>really mean "now"... He's pretty responsive to the rider, tho, and slows
>>down from a fast trot or canter to a slower trot when I slow down my
>>posting, so we don't often get into tug of wars with the reins/bit.
>>That's in the arena. Out on the trail, in a group, he can get a bit more
>>in the "go" mode and sometimes ignores me a lot more. Not real bad, but
>>I hate any pulling matches and would like to get him a bit quicker to
>>respond. 
>>
>>Both my horses are fairly well trained and very well mannered, in
>>comparison to a lot of horses. I guess what I'm asking for advice with
>>isn't the usual "help, I don't have a clue" but rather I want to
>>fine-tune these horses more and I can't afford to go to a
>>trainer/lessons regularly, so I'm always trying to read and learn more
>>on more own. Both horses are a pleasure to ride and don't have serious
>>problems. I wish I could work with an advanced dressage instructor, cuz
>>training level is pretty much as far as I know and can take them.
>>
>>I appreciate your advice/ideas!
>>
>>Ruth
>>


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