Re: Riding W/ running martingales (long)

[sweety@nni.com]

At 10:14 AM 1/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I have one question for the ones of you that are still not listening and
>continuing to put running martingales on your horses every time you
>ride. Are you listening to yourselves? Are you listening to others? (ok,
>that was two)

It is clear YOU are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing. Why
don't YOU go back and read some of those posts, without defensiveness, and
respond likewise.

that is not in the best interest
>for the horse 

And are you, or anyone, claiming to *know* the best interest of the horse?
The best interest of the horse would certainly not involve packing a rider
for miles down a trail. You bleeding hearts need to understand that just by
riding a horse we are not considering the horse's best interest. So beyond
that, we need to ride in a manner that is as comfortable for the horse as
possible - AND YES< some horses are more comfortable in a running
martingale. Some aren't. You don't believe it? Come visit. I have several
horses, one of which will ride quietly on a loose rein in a snaffle and neck
rein with only the slightest cue - but only when the running martingale is
on. She had learned, way before I bought her, that this was status quo, and
is comfortable with that. If one rides her without - she acts nervous, is
jumpy, and will swing her head around just like a scene in The Exorcist.
Tell me, which is she more comfortable in, and name one way it is negatively
affecting her? Clearly, she is more relaxed with it on. And this mare WILL
ride in just a halter, can be ridden with NO headgear, and responds to very
subtle leg cues. But, she is more comfortable and relaxed with the
martingale on. So I'm waiting, what is the detrimental effect? And don't
even bother with the swimming or getting caught scenario - any piece of
tackcan get caught, and in a running martingale you may allow the horse its
head <we swim quite frequently> Additionally, I have other horses who do not
wear martingales and respond quietly with cues to lower their head when
asked. Most any horse I've started will quickly learn to lower its head when
asked....however due to the fact that most horse owners do not have their
horses from day one in the horses' training, we sometimes have to deal with
what others have taught our horses. A running maringale is not evil, it's
just like anything - in unknowledgeable hands it can be used inappropriately
and can cause problems - just like a bit, a whip, etc. It has a place in any
legitimate training program, and most of these bleeding heart purists such
as yourself are the very same ones who decry that one 'unmanageable horse'
and ship it to the killer buyers because you refuse to try legitimate
training aids, instead calling them 'crutches'.


 and get mad at you, and will not listen to you. 

Ma'am, the only one who is not listening here is yourself. You're creating
strawmen arguements saying anyone who uses a martingale is just lazy, taking
a shortcut. Whether one is lazy or not is not the issue - it's what the
horse goes best and is most relaxed in, that is. Granted, just like the whip
and the bit, a martingale can be misused. But you cannot generalize everyone
who uses one into the 'lazy, shortcut-taker' catagory.

 re-teach your horse or find the problem that is causing
>the head tossing. 

Uh-huh. OK ma'am, but again, what if the horse is most comfortable wearing
the martingale? SUre, I ride my mare without it and she does a lot better
now than she used to. But she still prefers it, and is more relaxed. Why
erect strawmen problems to burn down ?

 It will help you to understand bits.

I think you need to understand horses a bit more, and just go out and
observe them objectively for a while.  And people. And the relationship
between the two.
Quit listening to this 'trendy' trainer or that one, and go get some good
solid experience.

 I have a hard time believing
>that this horse is banging his head on the wall because he is stupid. I
>would also look into diet, maybe too rich, or not enough exercise, etc.
>Lots of things could be causing it, but not habit or stupidity. 
>
Habit could certainly cause it. Horses are creatures of habit - that's how
we teach them, by repitition until the exercise becomes a habit. Vices are
created this way too. Stupidity is a relative statement and I don't think
anyone would suggest that the behavior stemmed from that.

>This last statement shows that David is not in control of his horse, but
>he is trying to control the horse with the bit. You don't control a
>horse with a bit and a running martingale, but with their mind.

Gee, you almost make it too easy ... right - you don't control a horse with
the bit or anything else for that matter - but you do use the bit, and your
legs, etc., to make the horse uncomfortable doing one thing and comfortable
doing another. That's the whole basis of training! There are times when bit
pressure is necessary - when the horse misbehaves, you make him
uncomfortable, when he is doing what you ask, you allow him comfort. This is
the entire basis of horse training, and as one trains a horse, the mere
'threat' of being made uncomfortable is what we call a cue. Same thing with
horses in the herd environment - they cock that ear and the other horse is
generally already aware of the threat of a double barreled kick, so he backs
away. The horse isn't saying "Sir, would you ever so pretty please move
away" The horse is communicating "Get the f*ck back or I'll kick!" We don't
like to think of horse training like this - but it's a fact, whether you
wish to be in denial or not, a horse isn't going to do what you ask merely
because you love and feed him.



>Oh and one more thing. There is no such thing as a horse that has to
>have a martingale in place because of their conformation. 

"Has to" is irrelevent, but there are horses whose conformation makes it so
the rider's bit cues encourage the horse to raise its head. It is more
relaxing and less confusing for the horse to at least briefly wear a running
martingale until the cues are clear. Again, you are full of it.


>I know that I have probably rub some people the wrong way, but if you
>are getting defensive with this post maybe you can ask yourself "why?" 
>
Nobody's defensive except you, my dear. I'm truly amazed at the ignorance
and lack of objectivity I have seen regarding this subject, along with
refusal to address any points people make. I *do* however, disapprove of the
tie-down or standing martingale as it does not allow any release for the
horse and thereby defeats the comfort/uncomfortable training purpose. 

>Lynette with finger poised over idiot (oops, I mean delete) button.
>
a button I should have hit before I read this post and got frustrated yet
again at human ignorance and lack of objectivity.

>
If you make people think they're thinking they'll love you...if you really
make them *think* they'll hate you - Don Marquis