Re: RC: Re: panicky horse/giving to poll pressure

[Maureen Mathisen <blueoak@snowcrest.net>]

This is all well and good and generally, I agree with what you are
saying about different methods.  However, some methods will not only
stop a horse"getting out of Dodge" but will also leave him so injured
that there will NOT be another day in which to try another method. 
Think of the worst thing that could happen with each method and evaluate
the result before trying some of them.  You want understanding, not fear
of pain.  A panicky horse doesn't listen to reason.  You need his
attention and trust in order to teach him a lesson he'll remember.  
Maureen

sweety@nni.com wrote:
> 
> This is all well and good for some horses, just like any other method. But
> it's no more or less effective, and it really depends on the horse. Teaching
> a horse to give to poll pressure is fine, and great, but doesn't cure a
> confirmed puller any more than anything else.... when he already knows he
> can break free by flipping backwards at full might, and if that's what he
> *really* wants - he's not going to give one whit to the poll pressure
> theory, conditioned response or no - he'll have an overriding response that
> he was already conditioned to  'get the heck out of Dodge!'.
> 
> The solution for a horse that ties badly will vary from horse to horse - I
> have said this time and time again, but there is no 'One True Answer', to
> just about any horse training related problem. The key is to educate
> yourself regarding your horse, it's behavior, and the problem {ridecamp is
> great for this}...and realize that what works for one may not work for
> another...
> 
> The most success I have had with pullers has been stout rope, stout post,
> tied not using the snaps - just knots in rope, sometimes a tube if one is
> handy, then sit down and watch the horse figure it out. There is a danger
> with just about ANYTHING involving horses and training, but my opinion is
> that the minimal danger to the horse from the tying lesson is preferable to
> the danger of an untrained or poorly trained horse, with which any number of
> frightful things can happen to human and horse. I don't want something
> trained half-ass - I want the horse to KNOW that he is a lot better off
> standing quietly while tied, even if that means a halter scuff on the face
> or two, while he figures it out. PLUS - if tying is taught as a normal part
> of growing up, it is much much easier on everyone involved - especially the
> horses. Foals should be handled and given lessons in leading and tying soon
> after birth...and it needs to continue. The one nice thing about halter
> horses is that they are taught from early on to lead, tie, and respect the
> handler. {Not that I approve of the other things halter horses are sometimes
> subjected to}
> 
> And my experience has been - once a puller, always a puller, at least to
> some degree. They'll 'test' new tie areas the first time they tie there,
> 'just to see'. Not all of them are like this - but the majority I've had
> through are. {Granted, I work with the idiot children of uneducated owners,
> so I have the worst of the worst come through!}
> 
> >
> >It doesn't sound as if she was panicking as much as struggling to achieve her
> >desired outcome-freedom.  Since I am on record as really liking the John
> >Lyons methods I will give you that perspective.  There are some ground rules
> >used to evaluate any training method: 1) it must be safe for the human (i.e.
> >if things go bad is there a great possibility of getting hurt?); 2) it must
> >be safe for the horse; 3) the horse must be calmer at the end of the lesson.
> >Also, you must incorporate steps into the lesson because when you start with
> >your goal you end up with a wreck.
> >
> >Some gimmicks work with some of the horses some of the time but there is no
> >substitute for going back to the basics and making sure she has been taught
> >to give to pressure.  Using war bridles, "be nice" halters or even inner
> >tubes are a short cut to teaching the horse to give to pressure with a
> >regular halter and lead rope.  Are you always going to have to use these
> >devices, even the tubes, every time you tie her up?  I don't have the
> >knowledge or patience to find the right amount of inner tubing and tie the
> >correct knot so it won't slip, etc. Anytime a horse is pulling back there is
> >a chance she could strain the muscles in her neck. Rather than mess with this
> >problem every time I tie her I would spend the time necessary now to teach
> >her to respond correctly.  Because she is a confirmed puller now I would even
> >use a bridle to start and then progress to whatever halter and lead you
> >intend to use in the future.
> >
> > JL likes the full cheek snaffle because when you put pressure on one side,
> >the cheek pieces on the other side pull on the horse's face.  This spreads
> >out the pressure to more than just the corners of the mouth so is the
> >gentlest, most effective way to get the idea across.  Snapping the lead rope
> >to the ring of the bit on the left side get her moving and add pressure to
> >the lead rope until she softens her neck to look at you.  She might stop her
> >feet but that is OK as long as she is softening her neck.  If she stiffens
> >her neck and just swings her hindquarters away that doesn't count.  Get her
> >feet moving again and ask her to soften again.  You must release the pressure
> >as soon as she softens.  This release is the reward.  It is the "yes, that's
> >the right answer" to your question "can you soften your neck?"  When a horse
> >has its spine in alignment it can use its whole body to pull but when you get
> >the head out of that alignment by softening its neck you take away all that
> >power.  So you are teaching her to give to pressure first off to the side and
> >then you will be able to put that pressure straight down and have her give in
> >that direction.  This will take hundreds of repetitions from both sides.
> >Don't release the pressure unless and until she gives to the side relaxing
> >her neck muscles.  Don't ever jerk the lead but you can add a considerable
> >amount of pressure to show her that when she gives you her head (softening
> >her neck) you immediately release the pressure.  This is an example of the
> >"conditioned response" that I spoke of in my other post.  She has been used
> >to obtaining her own "release" so it will take some effort on your part to
> >teach her a new way.  This exercise has multiple benefits, too.  Ever had a
> >horse get the lead rope caught up over its head when tied long? The snubbed
> >horse will usually fight it until something gives.  What about the horse who
> >steps on lead rope or reins and pitches a fit?  If this lesson has been
> >taught correctly the horse will respond by giving toward the pressure giving
> >you time to correct the problem.
> >
> >I have only scratched the surface on what JL spends an entire article
> >describing so I would urge you to find his tapes or his magazine "Perfect
> >Horse" and find out more.  Good luck with whatever you do and remember to
> >stay safe.
> >
> >Melanie in AZ
> >
> >
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> 
> I like horses....it's their people I can't stand....
> 
> 
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Ridecamp is a service of Endurance Net, http://www.endurance.net.    
Information, Policy, Disclaimer: http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp   
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