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Re: RC: ti's "article"



At 01:36 PM 3/26/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Nor are they rats, dogs, pigs, mice, chickens or fish. However, the testing
>for efficacy of most drugs and nutrients begins with these lesser
>animals--even though they're NOT HUMANS! I guess most researchers are not lip
>readers.

Yeah and we got Thalidomide and various other problem drugs to prove.
Believe it or not, there are species differences in metabolism.

>Cites, please. I've encountered folks who've fed no hay or grass to an entire
>stable with no ill effects. Crazy? Maybe. Dead horses? No.

This was in reference to the risk of high grai rations. I have already
provided a long list of references-check the archives...Also, ti, you are
probably leaving out a significant detail in the statement above-were they
fed NO roughage at all? It is possible and has been done, but the
scientific evidence has repeatedly shown a low fibre diet to be a
significant risk factor in colic!

>They need some fiber for motility--doesn't have to be hay.

No but hay does it best-and what other source of fiber do you propose? Beet
pulp works pretty well (see Susan's posts) but bran has other problems, ie
high phosphorus. Another potential problem: Feed a horse a complete (ie:
over 18% fiber added) pelleted ration with out hay and it will turn into a
termite-ie start chewing wood like a beaver-again-multiple published papers
on the topic. I have personnally fed research horses only grain and hay
cubes (50:50)-they looked great, were healthy but then I wasn't stressing
them plus they nearly destroyed our research barn with their wood chewing!
Yes, horses can tolerate wide extremes-but when you stray too far from what
they were adapted to over evolutionary time, you are walking a real fine
line-some people are risk seekers-fine, try to push the envelope-it might
even win you a few races but, as pointed out several times before, most of
us are looking to years and years of competition on the same horse-not the
2 or 3 years you'll probably get walking that fine line. Think about
it-most TB racehorses run 6 or 7 times a year and are washed up by 5 or 6,
Standardbreds (who tend to feed hore hay, less grain and give their horses
more frequent turnout and LSD training) are forced to retire at 12 and run
20 or more races a year! I realize fully that there are many other factors
involved, but am trying to emphasize the differences in the diciplines!
>
>> Remember those articles I quoted (and referenced 2-3 years ago) that listed
> HIGH GRAIN diets as a major risk factor for colic?>
>Sudden changes in diet, especially when high grain diets are fed in a couple
>of gigantic meals a day, can be dangerous. Grain in and of itself is not a
>risk factor.

Yes it was-the sudden change you refer to was also listed SEPARATELY as a
risk factor. The cut off was 50% of the total ration as concentrates
(which, for the uninitiated, means grains and grain based products like
some pellets).

>>The most recent
>> HORSE research has also shown an dramatic incidence (up to 90% in some
>> stables!)of gastric ulcers in racehorses (not a problem in our forage fed
>> endurance horses!).>

>A wild extrapolation of known fact. Race horses LIVE on bute and other
NSAIDs.
>And corticosteroids. And the stress of a number of emotional factors. You're
>saying that these ulcers are due to carbohydrate intake? Absurd.

No, I'm saying the traditional high grain/ low fiber ration fed to these
horses  contributes to the problem. Heck, there was a recent report that
showed that merely bringing horses accustomed to being on pasture into
stalls for 7 straight days gave them ulcers-even if they were fed only hay.
Nothing is black and white, though you'd like us to believe so.

>Are you finding it convenient to forget that whatever hay is digested
converts
>to free fatty acids? A "normal" diet is about 50% hay. Your previous
>suggestions include a higher percentage of hay.  

The volatile fatty acids derived from the fermentation of fiber (and
carbohydrates and protein too, if it reaches the cecum, which it will if
fed in sufficiently large amounts) by bacteria and propotozoa in the large
intestine(acetate, butyrate, propionate) are NOT the same as the long and
medium chain fatty acids that are derived from dietary fat and are utilized
by different pathways-so please do not confuse fat with fiber!!Normal
dietary fat intake of the average horse falls between 2-3% of the total
intake. Usable (ie: fermentable) fiber on an all hay diet is around
30%-40%, protein 8-12% (unless on alfalfa) mineral 5% or so, non-digestible
fiber (lignin, etc) can be as high as 20-30%, which leaves only about 20%
carbohydrate.


>The muscle physiology/energy utilization of all animals is basically the
same.
>Please explain how horse muscle cells differ in this regard from dogs, rats,
>chickens, humans and elephants.

No scientific history-it has long been established and reproven many times
that certain species can utilize different energy sources more efficiently
than others. You, your dog and your rat do not efficiently convert butyrate
and propionate to a usable energy. cows and horses fed a high forage ration
can! (elephants probably can too since they are also herbivores which rely
on intestinal fermentation-haven't seen the research on them, however).
 
I know ti will come back at me again on this-but unfortunately I, like
Susan, have somewhat limited time-so if I do not rebutt again, do not
assume I agree. Actually came in on a gorgeous sunny day to to this one.
Did ride my mare for 1 1/2 hr this morning-she's definitely getting her
fitness back faster than I am!!
Sarah L. Ralston, VMD, PhD, dACVN 
and Fling (What? we're heading home after only 45 min of fast trot?
NO-LET"S GO MORE!!)



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