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  • - Bob Morris

    Re: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others - Lisa Redmond


    Stupid question time again:  Are there any training clinics for the vets, or
    is it a learn as you go process--i.e., vets get their training at the
    competitions?
    
    Lisa
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Bob Morris" <bobmorris@xxxxxxxx>
    To: <roger@xxxxxxxxxxx>; "ridecamp" <ridecamp@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:22 PM
    Subject: RE: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others
    
    
    > Roger:
    >
    > Your latest posting is very interesting. I have endured and
    > observed endurance vetting since 1977, that is 25 years and
    > I would say that what is now called endurance vetting is a
    > far cry from what it used to be.
    >
    > First off, endurance vetting was originally intended as just
    > that. Vetting the horse to determine if it was fit to
    > continue (or start)for a considerable distance in a sensible
    > manner. Today, vetting the horse has turned to a CYA process
    > that determines if the horse is in condition to be raced to
    > the next vet check.
    >
    > I think your comments and suggestions are well thought out
    > but let us take a look at the suggestions one at a time;
    >
    > 1. CRI at all rides at all Vet Checks  NOT AT THE FINISH.
    >
    > This one is good if the CRI is standardized. I have seen
    > horses pulled because the CRI varied by two beats. I have
    > seen horses allowed to continue when the variation was four
    > beats. Now I do not consider that to be a standard. We must
    > establish an acceptable range of variation.
    >
    > 2. NO chasing hazing of horses by anyone at the VC to obtain
    > a trot. Crops for
    > unruly horses only, NOT to make a horse trot.
    >
    > Agreed. If the horse will not trot out then it is not fit to
    > continue.
    >
    > 3. Fix COMPLETION PULSE to 64 for 50 miles and up (NO more
    > lower 60 pulse for completion).
    >
    > Disagree here. I believe that ambient conditions should
    > dictate. I have seen times where 56 was a reasonable pulse
    > criteria. I would opt for a standard of 60 bpm but feel
    > there should be some acceptable range considering
    > conditions. However our AERC Rules do provide: 6.2.1.2   The
    > equine must reach a reasonable pulse recovery based   on
    > ambient conditions, within 30 minutes of arrival time   at
    > all control points during the ride. The maximum pulse
    > criterion is 68 beats per minute; however, the ride
    > veterinarian(s) may allow a higher pulse criteria in
    > documented  extreme  weather  conditions.  Respiration
    > should  be  evaluated  on its  own merit.  Ambient
    > tempera-ture and humidity effects need to be recognized and
    > there   effects on respiration rate considered.
    >
    > 4. Completion time at finish LEFT as is at one hour -
    > includes pulse recovery
    > and vet out process. (NOT the 30 minute pulse recovery I
    > have seen at
    > a few rides)
    >
    > Our AERC Rules call for one hour. 6.2.1.1   All Equines must
    > stand a mandatory post ride evaluation   within one hour of
    > finishing.  Riders may present their    equines for the
    > final examination at a time of their choos- ing during the
    > one-hour period.  An equine that does not   meet the
    > established criteria within one hour of crossing the finish
    > line shall be disqualified.  Once a competing equine has
    > passed the post ride examination, it may not be removed from
    > completion for veterinary reasons. When the 30 minute
    > recovery is instituted it is a violation of the rules and
    > disputable when used for completion criteria.
    >
    > 5. More then ONE VC on 50 milers and above. Some standard on
    > the number of VC per mileage and conditions- yes within
    > reason- may not apply to ALL rides.
    >
    > Well we can go round and round on this one but just let's
    > say we strongly disagree. We have no need to get
    > paternalistic in endurance riding.
    >
    > Now for your last comment "I suggest YOU run for the BOD
    > this time with all the DAL seats open."
    >
    > I have run more times than you can count but my politics do
    > not make me a suitable candidate. My stance is that the AERC
    > Rules and Regulations are very satisfactory and if
    > stringently enforced there would be fewer problems. Most of
    > those who would be my constituents do not agree. So! Never a
    > candidate again.
    >
    > Bob
    >
    >
    > Bob Morris
    > Morris Endurance Enterprises
    > Boise, ID
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    > [mailto:ridecamp-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Roger
    > Rittenhouse
    > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:29 PM
    > To: ridecamp
    > Subject: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others
    >
    >
    > FROM   Roger Rittenhouse
    >
    > I noted TWO posts from riders about the pre-ride VC
    > procedures and
    > the issue with 'strange or inconsistent way of going; NOT  a
    > real
    > issue with lamness.
    > This problem appears to be  an issue at more and more rides.
    > It tends to be more prevalent with  'big time' rides with
    > more then one
    > vet doing the trot evaluation - the sort of gang up vetting.
    > It occurs at the OD every year and other bigger rides as a
    > few riders have
    > commented.
    > Part of this situation is caused by  ' the top vet I see
    > something
    > and you dont' syndrome.
    >   IF one top vet 'sees' something ALL the other have to go
    > along to
    > not appear as they dont know what they are doing, sort of a
    > group
    > hysteria thing, one sees 'something' and all the others  -
    > say   'yeah
    > maybe so'. Just to be on the same team and all of one common
    > mind set.
    >
    > Its mostly bunk as far as I am concerned. IF the horse is
    > REALLY LAME
    >   that is, which means the AERC RULES definition of lameness
    > are
    > applied , then there is
    > no question, but this sort of uneven crap and missed ONE
    > step that is
    > ONE head nod   -inconsistent - that is, is baloney. I see
    > too much of
    > this.
    > To be pulled  you have to show a consistent uneven gait in
    > ALL
    > directions of the trot out - out back and circles. The old
    > policy was
    >  IF the horse took a few bad steps the condition was noted
    > as 'G1
    > inconsistent LF - or what ever.
    >
    > NOT this stuff we are seeing today.
    > Some of this made up criteria  is getting out of control.
    >  One up mans-ship vetting. Why ?? to prevent a problem
    > later?
    > Well I believe someone quoted a vet at the OD saying Lame
    > horses generally do NOT die
    > - but metabolic problems will kill.?? I think I have that
    > right.
    >
    > Then we have the other end of the spectrum where tired
    > horses are
    > chased - hazed - to make them trot- they may be sound but
    > are dead
    > tired  - fatigue? .. this has been one of may major bitches.
    >
    > Talk about inconsistent vetting. a little bobble at vet in
    > gets you a
    > no start- but having to chase - smack- hit - whapping with
    > crop at every
    > step - yelling- dragging - what ever to get the
    > tired, but maybe sound horse, to trot out at the end gets
    > you
    > a completion?? go figure.  It is NOT a training issue.
    >
    > I actually thought the idea with undefined motion gait
    > issues,was to let you start then REALLY look hard
    > at the horse at the FIRST VC. This assumes the horses is NOT
    > indicating an abnormal gait that causes NOTED irregular
    > motion- head
    > bob or hip hikes etc  WITH EVERY STEP.
    > I would of course NOT like to see a G2,(almost every step)
    > start or
    > continue.
    >  But not this minor uneven gait - as in 'we dont really know
    > but
    > there is something there' , so your out thing, this is
    > improper.
    > Sort of like the pull for 'he dont look right'  no real
    > issue found
    > just the vet does not like the way horse is looking.  There
    > are
    > standards on what constitutes a not fit to continue horse.
    > Not self defined -
    > non-specific criteria.
    > The ONLY time this really means anything is when YOU the
    > rider thinks
    > something is wrong AND the vet supports your 'feeling' THEN
    > YOU the
    > ride should re-evaluate and either adjust your ride or
    > withdrawal.
    >
    > Far too many times I see or hear of riders getting pulled
    > for in-vaild
    > reasons. Of course the vet can 'make something up' then you
    > get
    > pulled for a 'real reason' and we are not allowed to object.
    >
    > Seems horses are not being allowed to start for LESSOR
    > inconstant
    > gaits then would be allowed to continue on trail or at the
    > finish.
    >
    > Let me toss this one out - Does anyone other then ME think
    > all this
    > excessive picky nondescript vetting have anything to do with
    > the influence of FEI
    > and a transference of mind sets from the FEI vets?
    >
    > I have complained about this 'do it your self' vetting rules
    > interpretation to a few vets - defined what I thought was
    > improper and
    > suggested we have rules to follow. IF we do not care for
    > these rules
    > and want stricter standards THEN we should make the changes
    > to
    > conform with new standards.
    >
    > Since I was NOT at the OD  - let me ask this one - DID ALL
    > the horses
    > get the CRI done at ALL VC-  AND - at the FINISH - was it
    > used as a
    > finishing criteria? COULD you have been pulled for a
    > 'failed' CRI at
    > the finish??   Need to define that one?
    >
    > I have ranted on this before- I would like to know,   How
    > many other
    > rides (riders) have noted this? Is it being done at more
    > rides. It
    > sure is NOT consistent at the rides I went to last year.
    >
    > I have brought these issues(and others) and lack of
    > consistent vetting and
    > following the rules, up to the BOD and vets both on the BOD
    > and the Vet
    > committee. I have gotten no where expect - ridicule - no
    > action and told by the vets
    > that they will do as they please - what ever the vet of the
    > day wants to do - even
    > outside the rules and guide lines of AERC.
    >
    > So after reading this stuff from two rides (riders) I now
    > take it public.
    >
    > Should we make the rules of starting and fit to continue as
    > well as
    > completion stricter, do we need to codify the policy and
    > vetting
    > standards to insure ALL the vets perform the process the
    > same way at
    > ALL rides?  Do we want to develop standards as done in
    > Australia and
    > other places. Logs books all that which goes long with that?
    >
    > OR do we just ask - demand-  the rules, policy, and
    > guidelines we
    > currently have in place be followed?
    > I believe our current rules and vet procedures are for the
    > most part- adequate.
    >
    > I would like to see a  few changes but overall the rules and
    > procedures are acceptable for the protection of the horse.
    >
    > OK now that you asked ?? WHAT would I change ?
    >
    > 1. CRI at all rides at all Vet Checks  NOT AT THE FINISH.
    > 2. NO chasing hazing of horses by anyone at the VC to obtain
    > a trot. Crops for
    > unruly horses only, NOT to make a horse trot.
    > 3. Fix COMPLETION PULSE to 64 for 50 miles and up (NO more
    > lower 60 pulse for completion).
    > 4. Completion time at finish LEFT as is at one hour -
    > incudes pulse recovery
    > and vet out process. (NOT the 30 minute pulse recovery I
    > have seen at
    > a few rides)
    > 5. More then ONE VC on 50 milers and above. Some standard on
    > the
    > number of VC per mileage and conditions- yes within reason-
    > may not apply to ALL
    > rides.
    >
    > Just a few to get the flames up to temp
    >
    > I dont really expect any changes to anything- though. No one
    > wants to
    > go on the hot plate- as many of you will take exception to
    > most of my
    > comments.
    > I suggest YOU run for the BOD this time with all the DAL
    > seats open.
    >
    >  OF course we can do it the way Dr Matthew wants to go,
    > Get rid of the hard ball rules and 'racing'
    >
    >  Say just how did THAT work out the OD?
    > Guess the 50 would be more valid then the 100 miler.
    > I really dont see that going anywhere either.
    >
    > Roger Rittenhouse AERC #8263
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Roger Rittenhouse
    >
    >
    >
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    RE: [RC] Pre-Ride VC Issues and a few others, Bob Morris