RC: RE: Stallion behavior

[celeste <celestem@badgermining.co.za>]

Well not that I would but I could never whip my stallion anyway! Here we 
show our stallions in hand with a leather covered cane and a bridle (with 
snaffle bit) and when I work at home I use it to push him off me when he 
doesn't go straight by poking in the neck, I also use it to keep him 
occupied while standing in front of him in the lineup by letting him chew 
the end. On occasion at home when he has been unruly and I want to wack him 
on the neck (a quick wack that with the flimsy covered cane is not realy 
felt) he backs up before I even do it, he knows he has been naughty so he 
backs as soon as he has done the naughty dead and stays just out of reach 
on the lead! nine times out of ten I end up laughing at his cleverness and 
we go on with our schooling. To this day I have always been able to go 
between any stallion I own and I mare in heat he may be trying to cover 
with no problems, I push between put on his halter and lead him away, I 
have also always been able to handle my stallions at rides (at shows 
restraint is required), at home and around other horses with just a halter 
no chain etc.

Celeste (South Africa)
Mawlud (arabian gelding)
Shadixx (appaloosa stallion)

-----Original Message-----
From:	Tamara Jane Habberley [SMTP:tamarahabberley@lineone.net]
Sent:	Monday, January 17, 2000 12:19 PM
To:	celestem@badgermining.co.za
Subject:	Re: RE: Stallion behavior

Hurrah

agree with being anti whipping. My horse is a  quite mild gelding though he
can still be a pain when mares are in season, previously tempremental rig .
I had the horrible expereince of a proffessional (aledgedly) transporter 
try
to beat my horse into submission to load.Awful. awfu experience as my horse
just did not give in and ended up rearing and walking at the transport
person whilst stricking oput. He eventually loaded when blindfolded. i had
no chance to stop this abuse as the man threatend to leave us stranded. My
horses subsequent fear of loading  took me a LONG time to overcome.

Tamara
----- Original Message -----
From: celeste <celestem@badgermining.co.za>
To: <ridecamp@endurance.net>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:10 PM
Subject: RC: RE: Stallion behavior


> Hooray!!!!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lif Strand [SMTP:fasterhorses@gilanet.com]
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 9:56 PM
> To: ridecamp@endurance.net
> Subject: RC:   Stallion behavior
>
> At 02:25 PM 1/16/00 , MTo9831816@aol.com wrote:
> >I took a tip from John Lyons with my stud who is very well
behaved...wants to
> >be mouthy but knows better.... when he would try to get mouthy, he must
think
> >he is going to die... John Lyons says you can kill him for 3 seconds 
with
a
> >whip below the knees...I scream hollar and whip then I put the whip down
and
> >admit him back into the herd (pet him) and it has worked like a charm
>
> Hey - I'm up for a fight and here's why:
>
> Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with this approach.  Stallions
> fight by (among other approaches) trying to bite/break the legs below the
> knees (this is from my husband's personal observation of wild stallions
> fighting in Nevada).  In the wild, a horse with one leg that isn't 100%
> functional is basically a dead horse.
>
> When you whip a stallion (or any horse) below the knees (or any animal, 
or
> any human, anywhere), I believe you are doing these things:
> 1)  You are whipping the horse.  Sorry, I do not find any justification
> ever for whipping any animal for any number of seconds below any joint. 
 I
> strongly believe that if force is necessary for a person to "train" then
> that person should not be training.
> 2)  You are challenging and because you no doubt have the horse in a
> position where it cannot defend itself (haltered, unable to flee), you 
are
> not even remotely being fair.  A horse that is mouthing so much may well
be
> sending a message that it is uncomfortable/fearful.  Whipping as a
response
> is not the same as understanding, and is not even remotely the same as
> addressing the issue, even if you think you are fixing the problem.
> 3)  John Lyons may have said it but I am not sure everyone understands
it -
> you are sending the message that you will kill the horse, that for 3
> seconds you want the horse to believe it will die.  Above and beyond the
> shamefulness of wanting to give any living being that impression, I say
> this:  Even a mouse, when pushed too far, will fight for it's life (and I
> can tell you of more than one instance of horses, dogs, etc. turning on
> people who beat/whip them).  When you push a stallion - or any horse -
with
> such force, at what point will it flip into fight for it's life mode -
> especially since this conveniently no-evidence place for whipping (show
> trainers do it all the time because it doesn't raise welts) is a
> vulnerability point (see my opening paragraph and my next point).  And if
> that happens, how could one blame the horse, who was not the aggressor
> after all - all the horse was doing was chewing on a few things because
of...?
> 4)  This is primal stuff.  Stallions exist to defend/protect , besides to
> procreate.  When dealing with a stud, it's not like dealing with 
geldings,
> mares.  Don't push primal buttons by becoming a challenger.
Domestication
> is a veneer that is very thin.  Don't start something you are bound to
> loose or that will be irrepairable.  Use force as an solution to a 
problem
> with a stallion and you might get force as an answer - big time. Or,
> perhaps worse in the long run, your answer might be behavioral problems 
in
> the future that are way worse.
> 5)  By using such a major response to a problem behavior, you draw
> attention to it, you make it into a big deal.  The "pin in the hand"
> method, even the quick slap, is more than enough.  On the third hand, a
> total attention to the situation approach, which means going into *why*
the
> behavior is occuring, and dealing with that, would be the best of all
> solutions.
>
> By the way, whipping to fix problems is the kind of stuff that is banned
by
> the Geneva Convention if done by humans to humans.  It is called
> torture.  Convincing a being you are going to kill it - for even 3 
seconds
> - as a way of getting compliance is simply that:  Torture.  Why is it OK
to
> do it to horses?
>
> If you rely on pain to teach, you are not  educating.  I am sorry if this
> is harsh, but it's the facts.  Forced compliance is not the same as
> voluntary.  I know that there are lots of people out there who don't see
> the difference, but I do ask you to consider that quality does count when
> relating to an animal that is supposedly going to be your partner on the
> endurance trail.  [If you want a dependable animal and your training
> methods are based on fear, and you get into a situation that is more
> fearful than the fear you have applied, then you are in a whole pile of
> trouble.  Trust is a two way street.  [Paul's comment]]
>
> I do not believe that force/pain is a kind of educational method I
> personally want to be connected with any more.  I have been there and 
done
> that.  I am not proud of that approach. I will never repeat it.  It is 
not
> necessary.
>
> Everyone does what they think is right  - and I am not saying that my
> methods are the only right way.  But I am saying that if it's OK to whip 
a
> horse for one reason, then why wouldn't it be OK to apply pain to any
> creature to get it to do what you want?
>
> Call me an ass, call me a weenie for not believeing in using pain as an
> educational method for any being, but don't call me anything other than
one
> who cares.  Lif
>
>
> ____________
> Lif & Paul Strand   STRAND ENTERPRISES   http://www.fasterhorses.com
>    Arabian Horses for Distance Riding
> Internet Research * WebArt * Fine Art
> Nutrition and alternatives for self-reliant people
> Quemado, NM  USA
>
>


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