Dave Genadek saddle fitting clinic

["marilyn wiese" <mwiese@earthling.net>]

Note:

I own a Bob Marshall Sportsaddle and belong to a list devoted to those who
have an interest in or who use the SS.  This is a post I wrote to them about
the Dave Genadek saddle fitting clinic that I attended in Emory, TX.  I have
a hard time getting up the courage to send clinic/ride reports to lists
and/or lots of folks, because I tend to write the way I talk which means a
lot of the real me gets out there in front of everybody.  Anyone who has
ever met me probably knows what I am talking about.  So, before I can think
too much about this, I am just going to hit the send button and let this
thing fly......sorry for any mistakes or insults or whatever  :)

Hi guys,

Sat morn I got up at 5 am and drove 8 hours (that included a 30 minute stop
halfway so that I could visit my parents as I gulped down some yogurt, plus
about 5 other stops to walk around and visit the bathroom........I drank at
least a 6 pack of Diet Mountain Dew and it was all I could do (dew  :) to
drive 60 minutes at a time before I had to stop at a bathroom
again.......and I really needed to stop after 30 minutes.........but I was
tough and held out for 60 minutes at a time.  Also, at every stop I would
open the slant load front windows so that I could feed the horses lots of
carrots.

Oh yeah, after that long ungrammatically correct sentence I just wrote, I
still haven't told you where I was heading  :)  I was taking my Arabian
geldings, Khal and Scout (who will be 5 and 4 years old at the end of
March), to a Dave Genadek (rhymes with genetic) saddle fitting
clinic.....Dave is a master saddle fitter and the clinic is not set up just
so he can tell you that the saddle you own is trash and that his saddles are
the only ones to fit your horse  :)  He knew I had come so that I could best
understand how to make my sportsaddle (with toklat woolback with inserts
pad) work for my horses, over time, as they change shape and get fit.

The clinic started about 8 am on Sat and was over about 5 PM on Sun.  Dave
gave a presentation at 9 am on both days......the two days were supposed to
be the same presentation basically but since I wasn't at the first one but
was at the second one, they weren't the same because the first one didn't
have me asking zillions of highly technical and in-depth questions where as
the second one did have me there doing so...... :))).  But it was great
because I understand so much more about saddles and horses bodies and backs
and their movement and how we can interfere with them and on and on and on.
Part of why I understand so much more now is that Dave, Rosalie C-C and I
stayed at Jodi and Terry Denning's (the clinic hosts house) and we talked
saddle fit and horses until 10 at night, with big anatomy books on the table
in front of us.........basically, except for the 8 hours that I slept, the
rest of the 24 hours that I was at Jodi's, was a constant time of listening
and talking about horses and saddle fit and/or watching horses being fitted.
And we discussed feet, training, equipment, breeding, feeding, every aspect
of horses that you could think of, except for color coordination  :)))

Ok, so once Khal and Scout and I got to Jodi's, the boys were each put into
plush, large stalls that faced the clinic area and Khal got to be used, when
Dave wanted to show things on a real horse.  Dave has saddle pads that are
made with spaces for various widths of inserts to be inserted into the
center of them.  The inserts are about a foot long and 4 inches wide and the
widths came in 1/2, 3/4, an 1 inch versions.  All the inserts were gently
tapered to the edges so that there was not a steep drop off from the insert
to nothing.  What Dave is looking for is for the saddle to make contact with
the "5 inch or so valley" behind the withers.  His trees are made so that
the part of the bar that goes over the shoulder of the horse, veers OUT away
from the horse.  Thus the horse can turn right or left without the tree
digging into his shoulder.  And of course, when the horse is going forward,
and going fast or downhill, because the tree veers out over the shoulders,
the tree is not going to dig into the shoulders and hurt or interfere with
him.

We also learned about twist, we would place one hand on the side of the
horse's withers and the other on his back and then move away, with our hands
still in the same position and we could see how the 'wither hand' would be
at a certain angle and the 'back hand' would be at a less steep angle.  Both
Khal and Scout (who are related) had very similar twists, also very dramatic
twists as compared to some of the other horses.  Now if they are fitted with
a saddle that has bars that don't allow for 'their' twist, than the saddle
will be uncomfortable.  Also, you want the horse to have some room to be
able to round his back when you are riding him.........if the saddle
interferes with him being able to round his back, you have no chance of
training him to do so.....and if the saddle fits in such a way that it
actually hurts his back, the horse is not only going to NOT round his back,
he is going to be hollowing his back, in order to avoid the pain of his back
ramming into the bars of the saddle.

There is also the roll, which is how the tree bars are shaped in back so
that they allow for how the horses back slopes to meet the hips.  So the way
a tree is made must take into account the flair (at the shoulders), the
twist, and the roll......and this is really just talking about how the right
or left bars are fitted to the horse.  Another thing that Dave told us is
that how the horse's ribs are sprung, once he is mature, never really
changes no matter what shape he is in or how fat or thin he gets.......that
the underlying structure of the horse will remain the same, so that if a
horse's saddle doesn't fit him after he gains weight or something, it is
Dave's opinion that the saddle didn't fit before he gained weight either, it
is just now it doesn't fit even more  :)

I now understand how we want the horse to engage the underline, in order to
allow him to collect his body and if the saddle cause him to engage
(stiffen) his topline, because the saddle hurts him along the topline, you
are not going to have a horse who is able to use his body properly from
front to back.  We want the topline (spine) to be fluid and able to
move........like a wiener with strings for legs and washers for
feet.........ha ha never mind, you had to be there  :)))))

Dave was also able to find sharp areas and nails and such that most
definitely would cause the horse pain or discomfort when being ridden.  So
often these situations result in a horse that is high headed and hollow
backed, braced, upset, fighting, etc., and the horse gets blamed for the way
he is acting and carrying himself.  Even the kindest and most well meaning
trainer is not going to be able to train these things out of a
horse.......unless the saddle fit (or feet, or teeth, or whatever is causing
pain for the horse) problems have been resolved.

Khal was fitted on Sat evening and Scout was fitted on Sun morning.
Something that I knew (at least as I understand my sportsaddle and my horses
and saddle fitting) is that my sportsaddle is not complete without my toklat
woolback pad WITH 1 inch inserts.  The reason for this is that the
sportsaddle doesn't have bars so it will sit directly upon the horse's
spine, without the addition of the pad and inserts on each side of the pad.
The channel down the middle of the pad, that is created by the space between
the inserts on each side of the pad, create a gullet for the sportsaddle,
which allow the saddle to stay off of the horse's spine.  I personally have
been working on my riding and balance skills also, so that I will be better
able to ride my horses in a way that will interfere with their natural
movement, as little as possible.  This work that I am doing with ME, is
something I plan to always do, since I know I have a long ways to go before
I am able to change some long standing habits with my body (like being tight
and tense and unrelaxed with I THINK I am relaxed  :)

This is what Dave told me would help my ss fit my guys better.  One thing is
that I don't have to be setting the saddle back farther anymore (I was doing
this so that it didn't interfere with his shoulders).  For one thing, it
wasn't interfering with is shoulders very much esp since there isn't a rigid
bar on each side of the saddle.  Also, he explained how the use of riggings
on a saddle, can change how the saddle fits the horse (btw, he made a video
tape, which is very good, and we could watch it while at the clinic but I
had already seen it when I attended the Mark Rashid clinic....the tape is
very easy to understand and it touches on so much of what we discuss on this
list......the props he had in the tape, he also had with him at the clinic
and it was fun to get to see how they really applied to MY horses).  Anyway,
he advised me and all of the clinic participants, to use both the front and
the BACK cinches on our saddles.  Now this is after you have done what your
saddle needs so that it fits the horses back ( Dave fits the horses back,
not 'just' the withers of the horse).......added inserts to the pad, found
exactly where the saddle should be placed on your horses back, etc.  He told
us that we should tighten the front and back cinches to equal amounts of
pressure (of course, you should have a strip of leather....or in the case of
us enlightened and color coordinated souls on the ss list........a color
appropriate 'dog collar'  :), attached to the center rings of both cinches
so that the cinches can not spread apart, allowing the back cinch to slid
into the flank area of your horse, thus creating an unscheduled rodeo.  :)

By using the back cinch in this manner, the front cinch probably will not
have to be tightened as tight as in the past.  When we tighten the front
cinch really tight, it can cause the front 'pommel' tree to dig into the
horse's shoulders and (without the snug back cinch), the back of the saddle
rides up.  So there we are, riding along, with the back of our saddle
wanting to stick up in the air unless we stay seated to keep it down.  Or if
we post, we have the back of our saddle flapping up and down on our horse's
backs.

Khal has had loin rubs in the past.  Dave thinks that with my back cinch in
place, snugly, that I should no longer have problems with loin rubs.  I am
very anxious to try this out and after this weekend, I can see great
possibilities that my saddle (with pad and inserts) is going to fit Khal
much better.  With the back cinch in place, the saddle is going to move WITH
Khal's body instead of his body moving under and against it.  BTW, ever
since I my guys have even been old enough to place a saddle on their back, I
have always looked their backs over whenever I removed their saddle.  I
don't want the first time I notice they are having a problem with saddle
fit, to be when they have white hairs under their saddle.  I want to be
aware of any changes in my horses bodies and behaviors so that I can seek
out and respond to any problems that they may have, right at the beginning
of trouble rather than later.

I told Dave about this list and how some of you have already put grommets to
use, to attach your pad firmly to your saddle.  That is what he suggested I
do with my saddle and pad too.  When I put my pad and saddle on, I always
make sure they are peaked above the withers.......but my pad will work it's
way down so that it is ON the withers as I ride, even tho the saddle does a
good job of staying up OFF the withers.  So I am going to put grommets in
the pad, to keep the pad up off the withers better and I plan to grommet the
back of the pad, to keep the pad and saddle together.  The plan is that once
I do this, and have the back cinch firmly in place, the saddle and pad will
move WITH Khal's back instead of the saddle and pad rubbing against his
back.

On Sun, the horses and I left at 2 PM and arrived home a little before 10
PM.  I am so exhausted.....makes me wonder how I will ever handle long
endurance rides when just driving to and from places wipes me out.  But
basically, in a 40 hour period, I drove 16 hours alone, and then spent 16
very active hours involved in the clinic (plus cleaning my trailer and the
stalls I borrowed).  I had a blast, learned tons, made more new friends and
enjoyed time with friends I had already met at Mark's clinic.  So being
tired is worth it, I just want to get a little better at 'being tired'  :)

I want to point out that this post is my interpretations of what Dave
said.......and my memories of the weekend.......to really understand what
his philosophy is, you should watch his tape or attend one of this
clinics......for me it was so much more than the time that he was actually
dealing with my horses and my saddle.......I went there wanting to
understand saddle fit better, and I think that the time, effort, and
'willing to learn attitude' that I put into the clinic, allowed me to learn
a whole a lot and also opened doors to my learning even more as I read more
about horses, training, and equipment fit.  Equipment has nothing to do with
training a horse and your relationship with a horse EXCEPT when it hurts the
horse or interferes with his training.  Then it has everything to do with
training a horse and until the equipment fit situation is remedied, the
horse isn't going to be able to listen to you.  Equipment doesn't make a
trainer but it sure can keep a trainer from training  :)

mar
Marilyn Wiese
San Angelo, Texas
mwiese@earthling.net
http://members.xoom.com/mwiese/

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